Black and Blue Leafs

[Justin]

The Leafs lead the NHL in both hits and fighting majors (tied).

In favour? Not in favour? Many have been complaining about Orr/Mclaren/Fraser in the lineup over more skilled players. Either way, I think we can all admit that the fights and big hits last night helped give the Leafs momentum at the very least. Welcome to Randy Carlyle hockey.

 

[skippy]

I don't really think the fighting matters, as far as having guys like Orr or Brown. (although watching them beat up the habs was fun)

The best team the leafs have iced in my lifetime, and the most fun to watch included Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Green, McCabe, and to a lesser degree, Domi. They could play the game at a high level, but also weren't afraid to play tough or drop the gloves.

To me, that is what this team is missing.

 

[Big Daddy]

Last night was the first time in years I've seen the team stick up for themselves and each other.  I had actually forgotten what that confidence looks like. When Gorges was swinging away at McLaren, McLaren just held him off and was practically smiling and waving at the bench with the look of "Ohhhhh look at this little guy, should I drop him or not?"  This swagger the whole team has right now is awesome.  Sure is nice to watch.  Reimer is even slashing guys now. Kosta's a fighter?  Who knew?  Absolutely love it!!!

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I don't really think the fighting matters, as far as having guys like Orr or Brown. (although watching them beat up the habs was fun)

The best team the leafs have iced in my lifetime, and the most fun to watch included Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Green, McCabe, and to a lesser degree, Domi. They could play the game at a high level, but also weren't afraid to play tough or drop the gloves.

To me, that is what this team is missing.

Holzer, Fraser, Phaneuf, Kostka, Franson loves to hit and Liles was involved in some scrums.

Lupul had dropped them, as has Grabo and Kulemin, MacArthur too.

Something tells me Frattin and Komarov would not shy from a tussle given an adequately matched dance partner either.

Add to the above, Orr, Brown and McLaren.

I think the team is headed closer to the direction you're suggesting that we maybe realise.

 

[TML fan]

Love that they're leading the league in hits. Who wouldn't?

As for the fighting majors? I'm on the fence. I think it's a good thing, but only if you're a top team. It shows that you've stacked your team with tough guys, but if you are in the middle or at the bottom of the league, it doesn't appear to be helping you win hockey games.

 

[Kaberle15]

The best part about lead the NHL in hits is that is not attached with the 10 stupid penalties they took every game 3-4 years ago when the "truculence" came around...
They are hitting smart, see Komarov.

 

[princedpw]

Love that they're leading the league in hits. Who wouldn't?

As for the fighting majors? I'm on the fence. I think it's a good thing, but only if you're a top team. It shows that you've stacked your team with tough guys, but if you are in the middle or at the bottom of the league, it doesn't appear to be helping you win hockey games.

Right.  For example, Boston won a game 1-0 because the 4th line got caught out against superior opposition.  So off the top of my head that's perhaps 1 or 2 points lost there due to playing a 4th line that sucks.  There's also opportunity cost every time the 4th line hits the ice. 

 

[Kin]

Either way, I think we can all admit that the fights and big hits last night helped give the Leafs momentum at the very least.

Not really. The game didn't really start getting chippy until it was 3-0 and there wasn't a fight until the third when it was 4-0. When you're up by 3 or 4 goals i think it's safe to say you have the momentum already.

 

[princedpw]

The Leafs lead the NHL in both hits and fighting majors (tied).

In favour? Not in favour? Many have been complaining about Orr/Mclaren/Fraser in the lineup over more skilled players. Either way, I think we can all admit that the fights and big hits last night helped give the Leafs momentum at the very least.

No, I don't agree at all.  This is a great example of the kind of revisionist history that leads many to believe having bad hockey players who punch helps win games.

The Leaf were up 2-0 before any penalties were called.  They were up 3-0 after only a single off-setting minor for roughing was called involving Holzer (not one of the goons brought up primarily for his fists).  The leafs were up 4-0 and still no fights.

So, you might find fighting entertaining but there's not even the weakest kind of evidence it might have helped them win the game.

Edit: I should really read a little further down before posting ...

 

[Bender]

Love that they're leading the league in hits. Who wouldn't?

As for the fighting majors? I'm on the fence. I think it's a good thing, but only if you're a top team. It shows that you've stacked your team with tough guys, but if you are in the middle or at the bottom of the league, it doesn't appear to be helping you win hockey games.

Right.  For example, Boston won a game 1-0 because the 4th line got caught out against superior opposition.  So off the top of my head that's perhaps 1 or 2 points lost there due to playing a 4th line that sucks.  There's also opportunity cost every time the 4th line hits the ice.

Wouldn't the fourth line in general be a team's weakest line, and therefore suck against say the first or second lines of other teams?

 

[Kin]

Wouldn't the fourth line in general be a team's weakest line, and therefore suck against say the first or second lines of other teams?

Not necessarily. I mean, the 4th line is probably going to be the team's least talented but it could very well also be the team's best defensive line. Right now the Leafs' 4th line could easily be Steckel-McClement-Brown which could hold their own in their own end.

 

[nutman]

A tough team like Tor will get under your skin, so you can expect fights. Teams like this given enough talent have won cups. Recent examples being Boston, and the ducks. I,ll take this over what we had in a heartbeat. anyone against fighting is squeemish, and must not really understand how the game is played. remember one thing no fighting=more stickwork.  Tension has to be released some how.

 

[Kin]

As to the general thrust of the topic though I think it was well said before that while team toughness is a real attribute and adds a dimension to a team that toughness really doesn't come from 4th line plugs who really only live to throw fists at other guys in the same role on the other team.

I think of the 92-93 Leafs when I think of a tough Leafs team but when I think of them in that context I'm not thinking about Ken Baumgartner. I'm thinking about guys like Wendel Clark and Rob Pearson and Bob Rouse for the most part, guys who could throw themselves around and scrap if they needed to but were also legitimate hockey players who could contribute in other ways. Even guys like Gilmour and Andreychuk, the best scorers on the team, were guys who would qualify as tough players who could play a physical game.

So I think that's what a team should be aiming for. Dressing a goon or two isn't a substitute for that legitimate physicality up and down the line-up.

 

[Britishbulldog]

The make up of the Leafs I would like to see is one that has team toughness with one 'Colton Orr'.  Players willing to block shots and throw hits, etc.

Currently, boys that throw solid hits include Kulemin, Frattin, Brown and Orr at forward and Phaneuf, Holzer, Komisarek, Fraser, on defense plus you have Lupul, Bozak, Kadri, JVR, MacArthur, Franson, Kotska who will throw the occasional solid hit leaving only Kessel, Grabovski, McClement and JM Liles.

That is impressive.  The only thing I wish is the Leafs had a 'Gary Roberts' or Owen Nolan' type forward who could play more than 5 minutes a game.

 

[sneakyray]

The make up of the Leafs I would like to see is one that has team toughness with one 'Colton Orr'.  Players willing to block shots and throw hits, etc.

Currently, boys that throw solid hits include Kulemin, Frattin, Brown and Orr at forward and Phaneuf, Holzer, Komisarek, Fraser, on defense plus you have Lupul, Bozak, Kadri, JVR, MacArthur, Franson, Kotska who will throw the occasional solid hit leaving only Kessel, Grabovski, McClement and JM Liles.

That is impressive.  The only thing I wish is the Leafs had a 'Gary Roberts' or Owen Nolan' type forward who could play more than 5 minutes a game.

you left out Komorov...the guy leads the league in hits.

 

[Kin]

anyone against fighting is squeemish, and must not really understand how the game is played. remember one thing no fighting=more stickwork.  Tension has to be released some how.

I know it's futile but:

The problem with this post, aside from the spelling, grammar and syntax, is that is presents an argument that's not just poorly reasoned but is demonstrably false. Not only hasn't there been a corresponding rise in stick penalties as fighting has declined in the NHL but there are entire leagues without fighting, like the European leagues and the NCAA, where fighting is banned that have yet to see the sort of stick work you claim to be  a direct result of a lack of fighting.

The suggestion that any opposition to fighting in the NHL is based on a squeamish aversion to the violence of it barely deserves a reply but just to discredit it completely I can say that as a fan of both boxing and MMA two guys throwing wild punches at each other doesn't inherently bother me. My problem with it is simple. It's not hockey. I don't think it adds to the game. I think it detracts from it. I think that the largely unsupported belief skating goons helps a team reduces the number of skilled, talented players in the game.

Moreover, I think that most of the worst incidents of truly regrettable violence the game has seen in recent years tend to be from "players" who wouldn't be in the league if fighting were banned. The worst incidents of stick violence, for instance, in recent memory were committed by Chris Simon and Marty McSorley, two fighters. Todd Bertuzzi's hit on Steve Moore was in the service of goading him into a fight. Domi's elbow to Niedermayer, Janssen's to Kaberle, Boulerice on Kesler, Gillies on Clutterbuck...the idea that goons prevent cheap shots rather than cause the majority of them just isn't supported by what we actually see.

 

[Leafaholic99]

The make up of the Leafs I would like to see is one that has team toughness with one 'Colton Orr'.  Players willing to block shots and throw hits, etc.

Currently, boys that throw solid hits include Kulemin, Frattin, Brown and Orr at forward and Phaneuf, Holzer, Komisarek, Fraser, on defense plus you have Lupul, Bozak, Kadri, JVR, MacArthur, Franson, Kotska who will throw the occasional solid hit leaving only Kessel, Grabovski, McClement and JM Liles.

That is impressive.  The only thing I wish is the Leafs had a 'Gary Roberts' or Owen Nolan' type forward who could play more than 5 minutes a game.

you left out Komorov...the guy leads the league in hits.

Among forwards he does, Luke Schenn leads the league in hits.

 

[caver]

I agree with Carlyle about the reason that the Montreal game got stupid. Brandon Prust. If he doesn't start his running of Leaf players well after the game was out of reach then none of the sideshow happens. It would have been a well played win for the Leafs. Then Prust starts his crap and Plekanec slashes Orr; well I don't know which announcer said it but "you don't poke the bear".

 

[Britishbulldog]

The make up of the Leafs I would like to see is one that has team toughness with one 'Colton Orr'.  Players willing to block shots and throw hits, etc.

Currently, boys that throw solid hits include Kulemin, Frattin, Brown and Orr at forward and Phaneuf, Holzer, Komisarek, Fraser, on defense plus you have Lupul, Bozak, Kadri, JVR, MacArthur, Franson, Kotska who will throw the occasional solid hit leaving only Kessel, Grabovski, McClement and JM Liles.

That is impressive.  The only thing I wish is the Leafs had a 'Gary Roberts' or Owen Nolan' type forward who could play more than 5 minutes a game.

you left out Komarov...the guy leads the league in hits.

Whoops!  Couldn't see the forest for the trees.  I can't believe I forgot the team leader in hits.

Thanks sneakyray.

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't really think the fighting matters, as far as having guys like Orr or Brown. (although watching them beat up the habs was fun)

The best team the leafs have iced in my lifetime, and the most fun to watch included Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Green, McCabe, and to a lesser degree, Domi. They could play the game at a high level, but also weren't afraid to play tough or drop the gloves.

To me, that is what this team is missing.

I think they want those types of players but they are hard to come by around the league right now.  Pretty sure why I think if they get the chance, Nonis will be going all in for Perry and probably Getzlaf too.. both are that type of player. 

So in time if Nonis can acquire players like that, they can roll with less of the goon squad. But I think it's safe to say that Carlyle is going to want at least one heavyweight on at all times.