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The Captaincy Paradox

Kin

New member
Anyone else kind of think the Leafs are painting themselves into a bit of a corner with the whole captaincy thing?

To my mind, there are two perfectly valid ways to look at giving a player a C. They are:

1) Captains probably don't matter much but it's hockey tradition so we might as well give it to someone.

2) Captains probably don't matter much and hockey tradition is stupid so we may or may not give it to someone.

But lately it seems as though Dubas, in his quest to prove to everyone that he's not an animated adding machine but a real live hockey scouting boy, wants to be going down some middle road. One where the Captaincy, and particularly the captaincy of the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS, is in fact a very big deal and that's why they have to take their time with the decision because otherwise you might give it to the wrong person and then who knows how many cups you won't win over the next 50 years.

The problem I see there, outside of it being kind of dumb, is that the more you pump the tires of it being a big decision the more you make it something that someone could potentially be sore about not getting.  An extended audition process where only one person gets to win The Maple Leafs' Got Talent. It seems to me like a better strategy would be to just sack up and cast your lot with someone.

Or, alternately, if that's too far too slapdash and you really need to take your time to decide who gets to wear which additional piece of felt on their jersey...maybe have a placeholder? Someone respected, still contributing maybe but old enough so that they won't be around for much longer and so the long term question of who is Maple Leafs Primus inter pares can be kicked down the road for a year or two at absolute most. I mean, if only the Leafs had someone like that who they overpaid to be here.

Because, ultimately, does anyone still really care about this stuff? When anyone is looking over the tragic failure of the Phaneuf years does anyone really attribute any substantial portion of that failure to the fact that they can nominally be called the Phaneuf years in the first place?

I'm all for Dubas winning us Cups via disrupting the podcasting paradigm or whatever but it seems like this would be right up his alley of being an easy problem to solve, where the dopes who thinks it matters get fed a pile of slop and the people who don't can continue working on mapping out a quantifiable Leadership algorithm.
 
It's actually pretty stupid. You are right. It means little and it's really just a hockey tradition. why put the extra focus on the team. Why have the media asking Matthews questions about it? Guess what happens now? if the Leafs name anyone but Matthews captain, they start spreading rumours of Matthews being unhappy with the decision. The Leafs would be at fault for that.
 
Leafs could do something dumb like let Tavares be captain for home games and Matthews for away.

Having no captain isn't the worst thing.
 
Nik the Trik said:
To my mind, there are two perfectly valid ways to look at giving a player a C. They are:
1) Captains probably don't matter much but it's hockey tradition so we might as well give it to someone.
2) Captains probably don't matter much and hockey tradition is stupid so we may or may not give it to someone.

The problem I see there, outside of it being kind of dumb, is that the more you pump the tires of it being a big decision the more you make it something that someone could potentially be sore about not getting. 

I think you have a massive contradiction right there. Does it mean anything in the scheme of the success of the team? Debateable, but I lean on the side of it actually being a factor IF it's actually handed out to a player.

But does it mean something to the players? A great deal, actually, as you articulate. I don't think this is an easy problem to solve at all - particularly with players coming out of entry level deals, and established superstar players entering the fold.

I think the smart move would be to tell the team and the press that there'll be no captain named as long as he's GM, as he doesn't feel there's a need, that leadership is a shared responsibility, blah blah blah. This would put to bed the question, but would also take out the potential sweetener to Matthew's contract (which I personally believe it would be, others may think otherwise). I think it'd be worth it to take the scrutiny and media off, not to mention remove the very real possibility the Matthews may not have the maturity/qualities to effectively benefit the team in that role.


 
Frycer14 said:
I think you have a massive contradiction right there. Does it mean anything in the scheme of the success of the team? Debateable, but I lean on the side of it actually being a factor IF it's actually handed out to a player.

But does it mean something to the players? A great deal, actually, as you articulate. I don't think this is an easy problem to solve at all - particularly with players coming out of entry level deals, and established superstar players entering the fold.

I really don't see the contradiction. I think the captaincy can mean something to the players but only if the team acts as if it does. If it's largely seen just as a traditional honorific then I think most guys on the team would be fine so long as whoever had it was generally well respected. I don't think caring a huge deal about it is intrinsic to these guys.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Frycer14 said:
I think you have a massive contradiction right there. Does it mean anything in the scheme of the success of the team? Debateable, but I lean on the side of it actually being a factor IF it's actually handed out to a player.

But does it mean something to the players? A great deal, actually, as you articulate. I don't think this is an easy problem to solve at all - particularly with players coming out of entry level deals, and established superstar players entering the fold.

I really don't see the contradiction. I think the captaincy can mean something to the players but only if the team acts as if it does. If it's largely seen just as a traditional honorific then I think most guys on the team would be fine so long as whoever had it was generally well respected. I don't think caring a huge deal about it is intrinsic to these guys.

It's one thing to establish a C and everyone be fine with it when there's a defined pecking order, but that's the whole issue with the Leafs squad - there isn't one. Sure, you can put the C on Marleau for a couple years and kick the can down the road, but I can guarantee that if the mix stays as it is, there's 3 valuable players that are going to end up feeling slighted, even if they won't admit it, and perhaps even more slighted based upon the performance of the selected player at the role. I also think being captain in the Toronto market comes with certain ongoing trials that aren't shared in too many other places -ie, pushy and numerous media, playing under a massive microscope, dealing with manufactured controversy, etc, especially as short term fortunes go up and down.

It's an awful lot to try to identify who's best capable of this from sample of players in their late teens/early twenties.  - so if you don't have to, why would you? I'd say dubas is smart not to rush into this, and would be smarter to avoid it completely.
 
Frycer14 said:
It's one thing to establish a C and everyone be fine with it when there's a defined pecking order, but that's the whole issue with the Leafs squad - there isn't one.

That strikes me as the sort of thing that can't really be said with any degree of confidence without first hand knowledge of the Leafs dressing room.

Frycer14 said:
Sure, you can put the C on Marleau for a couple years and kick the can down the road, but I can guarantee that if the mix stays as it is, there's 3 valuable players that are going to end up feeling slighted, even if they won't admit it, and perhaps even more slighted based upon the performance of the selected player at the role.

It also strikes me as incredibly unlikely, bordering on the near-impossible, that over the next few years some sort of navigable dressing room hierarchy as it's traditionally understood wouldn't emerge.

And honestly, I just flat out disagree that every talented player the Leafs have will inevitably want the captaincy and/or put a huge amount of stock into who gets it. Especially the guys who seem to be pretty comfortable in a non-starring role already.

Frycer14 said:
I also think being captain in the Toronto market comes with certain ongoing trials that aren't shared in too many other places -ie, pushy and numerous media, playing under a massive microscope, dealing with manufactured controversy, etc, especially as short term fortunes go up and down.

I agree. That's part of why I think it's not necessarily something all of them will prize equally.
 
Nik the Trik said:
It also strikes me as incredibly unlikely, bordering on the near-impossible, that over the next few years some sort of navigable dressing room hierarchy as it's traditionally understood wouldn't emerge.


Aaaand I've won the debate. (drops mike). All you people out there, you're the stars! And of course big thanks to my tropical fish for always being there when I needed them.

 
Frycer14 said:
Sure, you can put the C on Marleau for a couple years and kick the can down the road

Yes. You certainly seem to have won the debate you were having with yourself.
 
It matters at least as much as any other hockey tradition.  And tradition, I think, is more important in sports than in many other walks of life.

And on top of that, if you don't have a captain, are you just going to let the commish point a figure and pick out some guy to come at random to come get the Leafs' Cup, that historic, epoch-making Cup, for its first triumphal spin around the tradition-laden Scotiabank Centre II or whatever it is?

"Tyler Ennis, come and get it!"
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
It matters at least as much as any other hockey tradition.  And tradition, I think, is more important in sports than in many other walks of life.

Right, so, again if it's just a matter of tradition...just name someone. It only becomes a big deal if they treat it like a big deal.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
And on top of that, if you don't have a captain, are you just going to let the commish point a figure and pick out some guy to come at random to come get the Leafs' Cup, that historic, epoch-making Cup, for its first triumphal spin around the tradition-laden Scotiabank Centre II or whatever it is?

That sort of concern seems to me to be putting the cart way, way before the horse. Also, it seems sort pretty contradictory. If having a Captain is so all-fired important then how will they win a cup without one already named?

Regardless, in that scenario, it seems to me that the team would make the choice after the final whistle while all of the players are jumping around and everything. To my mind there are three easy and fair ways to decide on someone:

1) The longest serving Leaf

2) Whoever has worn an A the longest

3) The Conn Smythe winner
 
Nik the Trik said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
It matters at least as much as any other hockey tradition.  And tradition, I think, is more important in sports than in many other walks of life.

Right, so, again if it's just a matter of tradition...just name someone. It only becomes a big deal if they treat it like a big deal.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
And on top of that, if you don't have a captain, are you just going to let the commish point a figure and pick out some guy to come at random to come get the Leafs' Cup, that historic, epoch-making Cup, for its first triumphal spin around the tradition-laden Scotiabank Centre II or whatever it is?

That sort of concern seems to me to be putting the cart way, way before the horse. Also, it seems sort pretty contradictory. If having a Captain is so all-fired important then how will they win a cup without one already named?

Regardless, in that scenario, it seems to me that the team would make the choice after the final whistle while all of the players are jumping around and everything. To my mind there are three easy and fair ways to decide on someone:

1) The longest serving Leaf

2) Whoever has worn an A the longest

3) The Conn Smythe winner
That would be something, the Leafs tip off Bettman and tell him the Conn Smythe winner is the captain.

Bettman: "Conn Smythe winner and new captain of the Leafs Zach Hyman come get your Stanley Cup!"
 
Zee said:
That would be something, the Leafs tip off Bettman and tell him the Conn Smythe winner is the captain.

Bettman: "Conn Smythe winner and new captain of the Leafs Zach Hyman come get your Stanley Cup!"

No, I just meant that if you didn't have a captain and won the cup, the guy Bettman could hand the trophy to could be decided that way, not that that guy would also then become the captain.

But, that said, I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think that if Hyman won the Conn Smythe there wouldn't be a lot of fans who'd think he should get it.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Zee said:
That would be something, the Leafs tip off Bettman and tell him the Conn Smythe winner is the captain.

Bettman: "Conn Smythe winner and new captain of the Leafs Zach Hyman come get your Stanley Cup!"

No, I just meant that if you didn't have a captain and won the cup, the guy Bettman could hand the trophy to could be decided that way, not that that guy would also then become the captain.

But, that said, I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think that if Hyman won the Conn Smythe there wouldn't be a lot of fans who'd think he should get it.
I don't disagree
 
Frycer14 said:
It's one thing to establish a C and everyone be fine with it when there's a defined pecking order, but that's the whole issue with the Leafs squad - there isn't one. Sure, you can put the C on Marleau for a couple years and kick the can down the road, but I can guarantee that if the mix stays as it is, there's 3 valuable players that are going to end up feeling slighted, even if they won't admit it, and perhaps even more slighted based upon the performance of the selected player at the role.

I really don't think that's something you can guarantee, even in the figurative sense. There's just too many assumptions being made about individual's character and desires. I feel fairly certain that both Tavares and Matthews would want it, but I have much less certainty either would be slighted if the other got the honorific.
 
A history of Maple Leaf captains...through the years:

Season        Player
2017-18  No Captain                                   
2016-17  No Captain                                   
2015-16  Dion Phaneuf                                   
2014-15  Dion Phaneuf                   
2013-14  Dion Phaneuf                   
2012-13  Dion Phaneuf                 
2011-12  Dion Phaneuf                   
2010-11  Dion Phaneuf                   
2009-10  No captain                                   
2008-09  No captain                                   
2007-08  Mats Sundin                   
2006-07  Mats Sundin                   
2005-06  Mats Sundin                   
2003-04  Mats Sundin                   
2002-03  Mats Sundin                   
2001-02  Mats Sundin                   
2000-01  Mats Sundin                   
1999-00  Mats Sundin                   
1998-99  Mats Sundin                   
1997-98  Mats Sundin                   
1996-97  Doug Gilmour                 
1995-96  Doug Gilmour                   
1994-95  Doug Gilmour                   
1993-94  Wendel Clark                   
1992-93  Wendel Clark                   
1991-92  Wendel Clark                   
1990-91  Rob Ramage                   
1989-90  Rob Ramage                   
1988-89  No captain                                   
1987-88  No captain                                   
1986-87  No captain                                   
1985-86  Rick Vaive                 
1984-85  Rick Vaive                 
1983-84  Rick Vaive                   
1982-83  Rick Vaive                   
1981-82  Rick Vaive                   
1980-81  Darryl Sittler                   
1979-80  Darryl Sittler                 
1978-79  Darryl Sittler             
1977-78  Darryl Sittler                   
1976-77  Darryl Sittler                   
1975-76  Darryl Sittler                 
1974-75  Dave Keon                 
1973-74  Dave Keon                   
1972-73  Dave Keon                   
1971-72  Dave Keon                         
1970-71  Dave Keon                   
1969-70  Dave Keon             
1968-69  George Armstrong                   
1967-68  George Armstrong                   
1966-67  George Armstrong                   
1965-66  George Armstrong                       
1964-65  George Armstrong                   
1963-64  George Armstrong                   
1962-63  George Armstrong                   
1961-62  George Armstrong                   
1960-61  George Armstrong                   
1959-60  George Armstrong                 
1958-59  George Armstrong                       
1957-58  George Armstrong                   
1956-57  Ted Kennedy                       
1956-57  Jimmy Thomson                         
1955-56  Sid Smith                         
1954-55  Ted Kennedy                                   
1953-54  Ted Kennedy                                   
1952-53  Ted Kennedy                                   
1951-52  Ted Kennedy                               
1950-51  Ted Kennedy                         
1949-50  Ted Kennedy                             
1948-49  Ted Kennedy                             
1947-48  Syl Apps                                   
1946-47  Syl Apps                             
1945-46  Syl Apps                                   
1944-45  Bob Davidson                         
1943-44  Bob Davidson                       
1942-43  Syl Apps                               
1941-42  Syl Apps                                   
1940-41  Syl Apps                         
1939-40  Red Horner                               
1938-39  Red Horner                       
1937-38  Charlie Conacher                               
1936-37  Hap Day                                   
1935-36  Hap Day                               
1934-35  Hap Day                                   
1933-34  Hap Day                               
1932-33  Hap Day                             
1931-32  Hap Day                 
1930-31  Hap Day                 
1929-30  Hap Day                   
1928-29  Hap Day                 
1927-28  Hap Day



https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TOR/captains.html
 

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