2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread

[Kin]

Granderson finishing 4th is a whole different issue - especially considering he received more top 5 finish votes (25) than Bautista (24). I mean, that's just absurd. The fact that some voters had Bautista ranked as low as 7th is just ridiculous. The guy was probably the most dangerous bat in baseball in 2011.

Yeah, the thing I wrestle with IRT Bautista is the intentional/semi-intentional walks issue and how it probably inflated his value a little this year. In a way it's kind of the polar opposite of what Derk is saying re: Teixeira and Granderson. Stat heads are so focused on not making outs that Bautista not getting pitched to all year is his strongest argument. Much like Granderson shouldn't win with of RBIs because guys were on in front of him, Bautista shouldn't win because Adam Lind was so terrible that walking Bautista was a no-risk proposition.

 

[Kin]

I do think that having a strong batting lineup favours other batters in their hunt for MVP. Cabrera was definitely a support for Verlander in his MVP bid, but not as much as Teixeira may have been for Granderson.

Well, you have a point(although I wouldn't use Tex for Granderson, I'd use Cano or the whole line-up). Not only does playing in a good line-up increase a player's basic stats like runs and RBI's that carry sway with traditional voters but it also increases the likelihood that you're on a good team which carries a lot of sway with the kind of dopes Busta references who'd vote for Bautista as the 7th most valuable AL player.

 

[seahawk]

The conversation on the the Tigers list that I'm a part of was concern that Cabrera was going to take away votes from Verlander. You could very easily make a case for any of the top 5. That being said the way Verlander dominated all of the pitching categories and the Tigers' record when he was starting showed his value to the team. Even if you don't think a pitcher should be eligible for MVP, I don't think you can argue against this one. I know I'm happy with the choice and the Tigers' season in general. It went better than I thought it would in Spring Training.

 

[Kin]

You could very easily make a case for any of the top 5.

That's probably true although the case for Granderson would probably be something like "Woo! Go Yankees!"

 

[Kin]

Ryan Braun wins the NL MVP. Should be Kemp but Braun was a good second choice.

Interesting that Kershaw handily won the Cy Young but Doc almost doubled his MVP vote total.

 

[Kin]

Also, for those of you who thought that the MLB draft needed fixing so that big market powerhouses like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals couldn't spend a ton of money and build through the draft, you got your wish.

 

[L K]

Also, for those of you who thought that the MLB draft needed fixing so that big market powerhouses like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals couldn't spend a ton of money and build through the draft, you got your wish.

I can't wait until baseball gets a real commissioner who doesn't sit in the pocket of the yankees/red sox.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yay free market labour deal?

 

[Kin]

Yay free market labour deal?

It was kind of a trade-off free market wise. There's the tax/penalties on amateur spending but they got rid of the compensation for free agents and more guys will get arbitration.

 

[hockeyfan1]

The new (pending) rules concerning the international market, where teams like the Jays are big spenders (7M this season), will supposedly level the playing field so that large dollar figures will no longer favour the big spenders.  While many believe this won't hinder the Jays much, still, it certainly won't add any flexibility to their plans in this category.  It may be both fair and unfair,
depending on how one looks at it.

 

[Trolloc]

I like the new rules. While the Jays were willing to spend on high priced prospects, they also have invested in having the best scouts. I have no concerns about this teams ability to find good prospects under this new system.

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

 

[Kin]

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

 

[L K]

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

The only thing that needed to be done was either add a 1-year period to sign contracts that limited player hold-outs, or to fix the slot system which if I'm not mistaken, they did.  It just kills bad teams abilities to sign good players out of the draft, and most of the latin players are signed by bottom feeders because they players want a shot in the organization that they will never get in New York/Boston unless they are boon players like Dice-K who came over as already established players.

 

[Kin]

The only thing that needed to be done was either add a 1-year period to sign contracts that limited player hold-outs, or to fix the slot system which if I'm not mistaken, they did.  It just kills bad teams abilities to sign good players out of the draft, and most of the latin players are signed by bottom feeders because they players want a shot in the organization that they will never get in New York/Boston unless they are boon players like Dice-K who came over as already established players.

The one argument I've heard that's reasonably fair is that you could argue that the deal is relatively proactive inasmuch as the Yankees could, at some point, have decided "Screw it, we'll spend 50 million next year in the draft and on latin players" and this precludes the possibility.

That said, there's no doubt that in a sport with some small competitive balance issues this probably makes things lean the other way.

 

[bustaheims]

The one argument I've heard that's reasonably fair is that you could argue that the deal is relatively proactive inasmuch as the Yankees could, at some point, have decided "Screw it, we'll spend 50 million next year in the draft and on latin players" and this precludes the possibility.

That said, there's no doubt that in a sport with some small competitive balance issues this probably makes things lean the other way.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I understand what they might have been trying to do here, but, they went about it the wrong way. If they want to prevent situations like the one you presented, it would have been better to put a max value on individual rookie/draft/IFA contracts than to put one on total expenditure.

 

[Trolloc]

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.

 

[L K]

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.

The solution to that is slot money, not capping how much a team can spend in general.  And not all players drop due to salary demand, some really good players drop because they are risky signings because they are forgoing college if they go pro.

 

[Trolloc]

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.

The solution to that is slot money, not capping how much a team can spend in general.  And not all players drop due to salary demand, some really good players drop because they are risky signings because they are forgoing college if they go pro.

That is a very good point. Not everyone drops because of money, but, many prospects leverage college to get more money.

 

[Kin]

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands.

Those players aren't steals, they're fully bought and paid for. And, as LK says, a high school player can still do that under this system by using college as leverage.

And, either way, pushing for this kind of "equality" in the draft is going to hurt the small market teams and give an edge to teams like the Red Sox and the Yankees. Do you really think that's what baseball needed?

 

[Trolloc]

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands.

Those players aren't steals, they're fully bought and paid for. And, as LK says, a high school player can still do that under this system by using college as leverage.

And, either way, pushing for this kind of "equality" in the draft is going to hurt the small market teams and give an edge to teams like the Red Sox and the Yankees. Do you really think that's what baseball needed?

They can still do it but there is less an advantage to it now.

The Yankees and Red Sox always have drafted strong regardless of spending. I don't see how this will change things too much from them.

The MLB has had more variety in champions than any other major North American sports. At the same time, the problem is them being able to overspend on big name free agents. As long as smaller market clubs get compensation when they lose players, they will still have an advantage during the draft.