2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular

[Kin]

Bynum is more valuable than Gasol?

Depends, really. Gasol is obviously the bigger presence right now and has a better track record of staying healthy but Bynum plays the more valuable position, is seven years younger and is on a slightly more palatable contract.

 

[L K]

Bynum is more valuable than Gasol?

Depends, really. Gasol is obviously the bigger presence right now and has a better track record of staying healthy but Bynum plays the more valuable position, is seven years younger and is on a slightly more palatable contract.

There is also talk of trying to flip Bynum for Howard...which is obviously taking pennies on the dollar for Orlando, but might be the better kind of option given that Howard would probably agree to a Lakers extension.

 

[cw]

As much as you've howled about the Rangers spending more because you allege Cablevision supposedly didn't care (which I don't entirely agree with per the above), another thing the CBA did was correct that, didn't it? The Rangers are capped so that the 4% bottom line figure we see today is a heck of a lot better, audited by both parties number with the Rangers, Leafs and big market teams making a profit.

Yet another thing you're willfully ignoring in the service of your point is that the Rangers are just an example. They're one of the ways in which teams prior to the lockout were not being run like a typical business. Pegula's statement after buying the Sabres, was only problematic in it's honesty. That 4% still doesn't account for the monies being made off the books.

Some of Pegula's point suggests that even though the league or team sells broadcasting rights to broadcasters on the free market for the best buck they can get, and the unions get a hefty percentage (~50%) of those broadcasting revenues, the unions of these leagues should be able to claw their way into those broadcasters businesses somehow and double bang to snatch some of that broadcasters money too if and only if the broadcaster is owned in whole or in part by a team owner. It's hard to believe Pegula is remotely credible on how wild any proposition like that would be to put together.

Hey, maybe they can get a .0001 of a penny on every french fry Anschutz's concession companies serve on top of their 50% of the concession revenues they already collect!!

That's a little like the UAW claiming they should get a piece of the price paid for a used car they manufactured after it's resold years later.

Does that mean LeafsTV can back-bill the NHLPA for all the millions they've lost?? ;D

This is Alice in Wonderland stuff - logistically, practically, legally, etc, etc in my opinion.

If it comes to that nonsense, just compress the league into the MLS one corporation structure and tell these guys and their antitrust notions to screw off "We're hiring at $X00,000 per year! Who wants to play?". End of story.

 

[Kin]

There is also talk of trying to flip Bynum for Howard...which is obviously taking pennies on the dollar for Orlando, but might be the better kind of option given that Howard would probably agree to a Lakers extension.

Yeah, I mean Howard can still drive the trade market for himself because of the extension business. Obviously the Magic could make a better deal for Howard if he was willing to extend with, say, the Warriors or Clippers but absent that Bynum's not the worst return in the world.

 

[L K]

Yeah so Chris Paul to the Lakers for Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom

Wow. I figured that any deal for Paul would have to include Bynum. That's a heck of a move.

Edit: It's being reported as a three-team deal now

To LA: CP3
To NO: Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Lamar Odom, Goran Dragic
To Houston: Pao Gasol

That's massive.

NO actually doesn't come out too bad in that trade...it doesn't make them win anything but they have some nice depth now and can throw out a nice 6-8 group of players.

 

[Kin]

If it comes to that nonsense, just compress the league into the MLS one corporation structure and tell these guys and their antitrust notions to screw off "We're hiring at $X00,000 per year! Who wants to play?". End of story.

Best of luck with that.

cw, you know I enjoy this and I'd be happy to keep up the CBA talk with you via PM or in another massive Sports Labour thread but being as you're mainly focused on hockey and this is the basketball thread I hope you'll understand that this'll be my last reply on the subject here.

 

[L K]

There is also talk of trying to flip Bynum for Howard...which is obviously taking pennies on the dollar for Orlando, but might be the better kind of option given that Howard would probably agree to a Lakers extension.

Yeah, I mean Howard can still drive the trade market for himself because of the extension business. Obviously the Magic could make a better deal for Howard if he was willing to extend with, say, the Warriors or Clippers but absent that Bynum's not the worst return in the world.

The Lakers might also be willing to eat Hedo's pizza...err contract.

And now there is talk that Stern/the other owners have told the Hornet's GM to stop the trade.  Odd as NO didn't actually get killed in the trade and there is a 0% chance that they keep Paul next year...so essentially the NBA owned franchise gets to lose their top player for nothing or at most a S&T all so the NBA can pretend that NO is a viable franchise location??  I just don't get it.  What owner goes in and buys the Hornets at this point?

 

[Kin]

The Lakers might also be willing to eat Hedo's pizza...err contract.

That obviously sweetens the deal for the Magic but not to the extent that it would outweigh a Warriors deal built around Steph Curry or a Clippers deal built around Eric Gordon.

And now there is talk that Stern/the other owners have told the Hornet's GM to stop the trade.  Odd as NO didn't actually get killed in the trade and there is a 0% chance that they keep Paul next year...so essentially the NBA owned franchise gets to lose their top player for nothing or at most a S&T all so the NBA can pretend that NO is a viable franchise location??  I just don't get it.  What owner goes in and buys the Hornets at this point?

I don't get that either. Maybe it's just a desire to shop him around some more.

I mean it's funny. On the one hand it would be strange if the NBA, after making a big deal about increasing parity in the league, would then trade the star player on the team they own to the Lakers to help create another super team. Still, like you said, they don't get killed on this deal and Paul does still get to say who he'll sign with.

This just really re-enforces the reality that the League owning one of the teams is a joke. We'd have seen that in the NHL if anyone cared about the Coyotes.

 

[cw]

In 2005, when Goodenow and his acrimony got pushed aside and the players themselves got to sit down and go through Levitt's report and the real data, that's when the light bulbs went off for the players. Several of the players said as much. What Goodenow had portrayed to them and what the facts turned out to be were two very different things. The league was not being nearly as unreasonable as Goodenow had led them to believe.

Yeah, that's it. They remembered they were good little boys and should be grateful for what they get. They realized the owners were truly benevolent souls. It had nothing to do with missing paychecks and willing to compromise on the earnings of future players so they could get back to making money.

C'mon. Be in the owners pocket as much as you want but don't try to feed that to me. The union broke, the owners got the deal they wanted.

In fact, what several players said is that Goodenow misled them. And he did. He did not have his facts straight. When they found that out, support for Goodenow collapsed.

Obviously, it was such a bad deal, the players couldn't wait to get rid of it ..... oh wait, that's right, they extended it.

 

[L K]

The Lakers might also be willing to eat Hedo's pizza...err contract.

That obviously sweetens the deal for the Magic but not to the extent that it would outweigh a Warriors deal built around Steph Curry or a Clippers deal built around Eric Gordon.

And now there is talk that Stern/the other owners have told the Hornet's GM to stop the trade.  Odd as NO didn't actually get killed in the trade and there is a 0% chance that they keep Paul next year...so essentially the NBA owned franchise gets to lose their top player for nothing or at most a S&T all so the NBA can pretend that NO is a viable franchise location??  I just don't get it.  What owner goes in and buys the Hornets at this point?

I don't get that either. Maybe it's just a desire to shop him around some more.

I mean it's funny. On the one hand it would be strange if the NBA, after making a big deal about increasing parity in the league, would then trade the star player on the team they own to the Lakers to help create another super team. Still, like you said, they don't get killed on this deal and Paul does still get to say who he'll sign with.

This just really re-enforces the reality that the League owning one of the teams is a joke. We'd have seen that in the NHL if anyone cared about the Coyotes.

The thing about the Coyotes is that the NHL has done a reasonable job of actually letting them make free agent/trade moves.  They have been pretty much independent on how they operate other than not having the cap ceiling as a spending limit.  You didn't hear anyone throw a hissy fit at the league (like Mark Cuba did with the Carl Landry trade) though, so I guess that is what you are getting at. 

This is just a bunch of whiny "small market" owners having Laker-envy and pissing all over the NBA.  The ethics of this now are that you cannot trade Chris Paul elsewhere.  So you just screwed over the entire future of the NO Hornets as Paul keeps them out of the basement of the draft this year, he walks for nothing in the offseason (you can't trade him now, it's unfair to the Lakers), and the team has to relocate in 5 years when no-one will purchase the team without that stipulation. 

Stern is a pathetic commissioner and the other owners are just continuing to show their embarrassingly incompetent colours.

 

[Kin]

The thing about the Coyotes is that the NHL has done a reasonable job of actually letting them make free agent/trade moves.  They have been pretty much independent on how they operate other than not having the cap ceiling as a spending limit.

Maybe. But could you imagine a similar situation to this with the Coyotes? Where they had to trade a 26 year old the relative quality of Paul and they decided on the Leafs? Something tells me we'd be hearing a lot of conspiracy theorists piping up.

This is just a bunch of whiny "small market" owners having Laker-envy and pissing all over the NBA.  The ethics of this now are that you cannot trade Chris Paul elsewhere.  So you just screwed over the entire future of the NO Hornets as Paul keeps them out of the basement of the draft this year, he walks for nothing in the offseason (you can't trade him now, it's unfair to the Lakers), and the team has to relocate in 5 years when no-one will purchase the team without that stipulation. 

Well, if that's the case then you're right. That would horribly bone over the Hornets and Lakers.

But let's not forget that so much of the subtext of the NBA labour negotiations were about guys like Gilbert who were so offended that Lebron James got to decide where he got to play instead of letting the owners own the rights to other humans and dictate how their careers went. The lockout ends and Paul does essentially the same thing? That'll cause some of the owners to spit up their mint juleps.

Stern is a pathetic commissioner and the other owners are just continuing to show their embarrassingly incompetent colours.

No arguments here. But, hey, at least the players no longer wear that 'hood clothing on the bench, huh?

 

[Kin]

As a side note though, how great is it to get to talk hoops again?

Anyways, the more I look at that deal the more I like it for the Hornets. Odom steps in and can replace a lot of what West gave them. Scola is a guy who makes Okafor expendable and a valuable trade chip or is valuable insurance for an Okafor injury. Dragic is a guy who's got real potential at PG even if he doesn't replace Paul and then Martin, I mean, averaged 23 a game last year.

That's a really valuable collection of guys. It doesn't give you a blue chipper to compete in the West but there's a ton of quality there.

 

[Deebo]

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=7333285

Sources said that a group of NBA owners, assembled in New York for the ratification of the league's new labor pact with the players, protested vigorously that the league-owned Hornets were trading Paul to the star-studded Lakers and convinced NBA commissioner David Stern to intervene.

"The deal is off," one source told ESPN.com.

 

[cw]

As for the rest of your conjecture, that would have to assume that the NHLPA either ignored it or the NHL wouldn't accept it during negotiations.

No. It assumes that the NHLPA knew it and the NHL knew it but the NHL had the entirety of the leverage in the situation and everyone on the BOG was going to be rich if the NHL blinked out of existence. They could wait it out. The NHLPA couldn't. They had a bogus argument with bogus numbers but could win because they were richer than the other guys. So they did and made a clearly transparent cash grab that was cheered on by people who think it's tremendous when the rich get richer.

Nonsense. The Rangers payroll you wrongfully claimed was putting the Rangers into an excessive loss position could be capped and show the Rangers profitable. Ditto for the Leafs and big market teams. As I said, a child could figure that much out.

They caved when Goodenow misrepresented the facts to them and they found out about that.

Consider that the following:
1. The players election to extend the deal to the max time
2. The rise in the NHL cap from $39 mil to $64.3 mil (64%)
3. The fact that the NBA & NFL haven't materially exceeded the 57% of revenue the NHLPA currently receive in this deal and the NBA & NFL have taken a cut in that rate in their recent CBAs to around roughly 50% - proves it wasn't a cash grab
4. Even you have suggested that in the next deal, the NHLPA's share of revenue is likely to fall
5. The fact that according to Forbes, the owners with the lowest % of operating revenue (compared to MLB, NFL and NBA) is the NHL.
6. That much of what the NHL told the NHLPA would happen under this deal came to pass

supports the fact that the NHLPA didn't get taken to the cleaners in this contract.

Bettman could have stomped on their throats under the circumstances but he didn't do it which bodes well for him this time around.

The facts substantiate the NHLPA got a pretty reasonable deal.

 

[L K]

As a side note though, how great is it to get to talk hoops again?

Anyways, the more I look at that deal the more I like it for the Hornets. Odom steps in and can replace a lot of what West gave them. Scola is a guy who makes Okafor expendable and a valuable trade chip or is valuable insurance for an Okafor injury. Dragic is a guy who's got real potential at PG even if he doesn't replace Paul and then Martin, I mean, averaged 23 a game last year.

That's a really valuable collection of guys. It doesn't give you a blue chipper to compete in the West but there's a ton of quality there.

And they have a veteran-ish guy with Jack, who isn't great but at least works hard to at least be a temporary guy at the top.

But it's a moot point.  The deal was officially killed by MJ/Gilbert/Sarver/Stern.  I feel bad for Odom/Pau and the Rockets players now...they get stuck coming to camp knowing their team had turfed them officially and instead they get to start the season as "key" members of their team. 

And Paul sits there thinking, ok, so I don't have the ability to demand where I go for one more year, but now I don't agree to a S&T to spite the organization/owners and I sign wherever the hell I want.

 

[Kin]

Nonsense. The Rangers payroll you wrongfully claimed was putting the Rangers into an excessive loss position could be capped and show the Rangers profitable.

Feel free to show me where I said excessive losses.

I know I said I'd stop responding to you but you're repeatedly exaggerating, misrepresenting what I'm saying and flat out lying in your pretty ridiculous zeal to try and prove the owners are the finest and most virtuous examples of benevolence in the known world. It's pretty sad and, quite frankly, beneath you.

Now, if you don't mind, this is still a thread about the NBA.

 

[L K]

Paul on Twitter: WoW

And now the reports that he's pissed and won't come to camp.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

As a side note though, how great is it to get to talk hoops again?

Anyways, the more I look at that deal the more I like it for the Hornets. Odom steps in and can replace a lot of what West gave them. Scola is a guy who makes Okafor expendable and a valuable trade chip or is valuable insurance for an Okafor injury. Dragic is a guy who's got real potential at PG even if he doesn't replace Paul and then Martin, I mean, averaged 23 a game last year.

That's a really valuable collection of guys. It doesn't give you a blue chipper to compete in the West but there's a ton of quality there.

I think, long term there's no question in my mind that they'd be better off if this deal had gone through. I'm not sure it's even close. Martin and Scola are very good pieces, not to mention Odom (role player) and the potential in Dragic as well as a 1st.

If anyone's getting screwed in this veto it's NO, in my opinion.

 

[Kin]

Paul on Twitter: WoW

And now the reports that he's pissed and won't come to camp.

The NBA. It's Fan-tastic.

 

[Kin]

I think, long term there's no question in my mind that they'd be better off if this deal had gone through. I'm not sure it's even close. Martin and Scola are very good pieces, not to mention Odom (role player) and the potential in Dragic as well as a 1st.

If anyone's getting screwed in this veto it's NO, in my opinion.

I don't know if I'd dismiss Odom as just a role-player. He averaged a 14-9 last year off the bench for the most part. Gasol blocked him at his natural position. He could be an 18-10 guy in the right circumstances.

Anyways, we'll see how this shakes out. I know LK thinks that this means the Hornets can't trade Paul at all but they may still swap him if the only objections to a future deal would be Jerry Buss.