2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[bustaheims]

The CBA term that the league will not give on is in relation to the $300 million make whole dollars.  The $300 million is payable over the life of the deal.  If the players want the $300 million they have to take the 10 years.  Reduce one and you have to reduce the other.  Seems pretty simply to me.  Now the contract lenght na dvariance makes little sense to me.  I can see why you fight for one or the other but I really don'y see a need for both.

The previous Make Whole would have been paid out completely by the end of the 3rd season. I'm not sure the most recent one would be all that different, depending on how the $50M that was to go into the players' pension fund was managed.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Nitty gritty aside though...maybe it's just me but despite Thursday's weirdness I'm now more confident than ever that we'll see a season. The NHL can make all sorts of noise about hills they want to die on but if there's one thing this week has taught us? The players have no hills. They're willing to negotiate on everything. I thought the contract term might be the last sacred cow but if they buckled and bailed on that one...I bet a deal is done before I run out of Menorah candles.

I don't think the league can afford to not have a season.  A truncated season, in essence, is better than no season at all.

According to SBN's Howard Bloom (as seen on CTV national news), he definitely does not believe there will not be a season, for it would be too "catastrophic" for the NHL to let that happen, for the many reasons that we already know of.

Some may say we may have gone from being "cautiously optimistic" to being "overly pessimistic" so soon, so fast, after the latest breakdown in negotiations, but I for one still remain somewhat hopeful that sense and sensibility will preside over any reasoning.

(*still keeping fingers crossed*)

 

[Kin]

I am with you on this Nik, there should be a deal here to be had.  I think the owners should push varience in return for longer contracts.  On the agreement length maybe stick with the 10 for make whole payout reasons and allow each side an out after 7???  What do you say Nik do we have a deal so we can get back to regular Sat nights?

I don't know how the particulars will shake out. I'd guess that the final agreement will be less a meeting in the middle than it will be one side meeting the other but I wouldn't guess as to who that'll be. I just think that they're too close for it not to get done now.

 

[Corn Flake]

Nitty gritty aside though...maybe it's just me but despite Thursday's weirdness I'm now more confident than ever that we'll see a season. The NHL can make all sorts of noise about hills they want to die on but if there's one thing this week has taught us? The players have no hills. They're willing to negotiate on everything. I thought the contract term might be the last sacred cow but if they buckled and bailed on that one...I bet a deal is done before I run out of Menorah candles.

Yup.  They really aren't that far apart.. they just make things as difficult on each other as possible.  I guess that's the point.

Season starts January 1.  That is my bet.

 

[maplesyrup]

Season starts January 1.  That is my bet.

Was Gretzky's bet too (months ago) IIRC.

Edit: Ah yes;

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/10/no-end-in-sight-for-labour-disput-despite-gretzkys-jan-1-hope.html

 

[Kin]

Yup.  They really aren't that far apart.. they just make things as difficult on each other as possible.  I guess that's the point.

To give the players some credit though, and it's just some and trust me I'm going to loudly call them idiots for the crummy deal they'll eventually accept, they are going to get a significantly better deal for themselves than the ones they were offered beforehand.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

NHLPA should hire this kid;





[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXUcmVibTUI[/youtube]

 

[Bates]

We don't really know that for sure though Nik.  Maybe if the players had offered a "real" 50/50 split 2 months ago they could have gotten this deal then.  I do think however the deal they sign in a few weeks from now was available 2 weeks ago so they will have lost a portion of the season for nothing.

 

[Kin]

We don't really know that for sure though Nik.  Maybe if the players had offered a "real" 50/50 split 2 months ago they could have gotten this deal then.  I do think however the deal they sign in a few weeks from now was available 2 weeks ago so they will have lost a portion of the season for nothing.

No, we do know that because we do know what they were offered. Your suppositions on what they "might" have gotten if they'd offered something different is speculation, saying that the owners offers have steadily improved is just fact.

 

[bustaheims]

DarrenDreger: Further NHL regular season cancellations today. Thru Dec 30th.

 

[Corn Flake]

NHLPA should hire this kid;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXUcmVibTUI[/youtube]

The script for that was a transcript between Bob Goodenow and an owner from 1994. And that was Bob's son.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yup.  They really aren't that far apart.. they just make things as difficult on each other as possible.  I guess that's the point.

To give the players some credit though, and it's just some and trust me I'm going to loudly call them idiots for the crummy deal they'll eventually accept, they are going to get a significantly better deal for themselves than the ones they were offered beforehand.

You mean significantly better than what they were supposedly just about to agree to late last week?

 

[Kin]

You mean significantly better than what they were supposedly just about to agree to late last week?

That has yet to be seen, I guess, but I don't think there's that significant a gap between them outside of the variance on the deals. I just meant that they've gotten the owners to moderate their position with every subsequent offer.

 

[Bates]

I guess by this logic the owners were also right to hold out because their agreement will also be better than what they were offered months ago. Think of how much better off it would be for both if they had actually made reasonable offers months ago and didn't lose half a season.

 

[Kin]

I guess by this logic the owners were also right to hold out because their agreement will also be better than what they were offered months ago.

It's not so much a question of right or wrong but really whether or not the strategy paid off. Throughout this thread there are lots of instances of people saying when the previous offers were made that the players should take them because those offers were likely to be the best ones they could get. Those people were wrong, though, and the players stance led them to receive better and better offers.

It's not quite the same with the owners because they were the ones who started this mess in the first place by locking the players out but nobody is going to look at the finished product and not say that the owners didn't get themselves a deal that was significantly better for them then the previous deal. So, again, "right" isn't the question but it will end up looking that they correctly sussed out the union's resolve and got a whole bunch of concessions.

Think of how much better off it would be for both if they had actually made reasonable offers months ago and didn't lose half a season.

In the end I don't think it will prove to be much of a difference. I don't think this process "damaged" the game much and I don't think either side would have made the moves they did absent the pressure they felt the last two months.

 

[Corn Flake]

You mean significantly better than what they were supposedly just about to agree to late last week?

That has yet to be seen, I guess, but I don't think there's that significant a gap between them outside of the variance on the deals. I just meant that they've gotten the owners to moderate their position with every subsequent offer.

For sure.  I don't think there is much left to squeeze though but Fehr seems willing - and has convinced the players - to go as far as he needs to in order to extract every potential penny.  He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

Bettman doesn't seem to have an issue holding everyone over that same cliff either.

 

[Kin]

For sure.  I don't think there is much left to squeeze though but Fehr seems willing - and has convinced the players - to go as far as he needs to in order to extract every potential penny.  He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

At the end of the day his job is just to get the deal that the players will ultimately be the happiest with. If the benchmark for his success is to get the best possible deal that is available then I think it's hard to fault the job he's done or the strategy the players have chosen. If I were a player right now I'd be pretty confident that if he were advising to hold out a little longer that it would likely yield some additional results.

I think Fehr was in a tough situation to an extent here. He clearly doesn't have a constituency who has the resolve to hold out for the kind of deal he'd ultimately like to make and so he has to negotiate knowing that he really didn't have a nuclear option.

 

[Kin]

He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

Bettman doesn't seem to have an issue holding everyone over that same cliff either.

And, really, neither of them should have an issue with that. What's the point in a game of chicken if the other guy knows you're going to blink?

 

[Corn Flake]

He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

Bettman doesn't seem to have an issue holding everyone over that same cliff either.

That sure didn't seem to be the case last Thursday.  Fehr was calm and collected... Bettman was going out of his mind.  The former knew last week that there is at least another few chapters to this saga.. the latter thought they were on the final one.  It was obvious from their respective reactions.

I think Gary has been willing to drive to the cliff if need be, but Fehr is fine with the car hanging two front wheels over and rocking.