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2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

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Nik? said:
princedpw said:
I doubt it matters when they start.  A deal will only get done when people start to lose money -- before that time both sides will hold out, hoping to maximize their profits.  Is there a major US sports league that got their CBA done on time in the last 20 years?

Major League Baseball hasn't had a work stoppage since the '94 strike.

That is interesting.  They also have no real constraints on player salaries, do they?  I don't follow baseball.  I can only assume the owners have elected not to try to contain player salaries.  Any thoughts on why the small teams haven't taken control and demanded a clampdown?  Is there some kind of revenue sharing or TV money that changes the dynamics?
 
princedpw said:
How does that change things?  What is the incentive for a team to pay a guy 100% up front?  (That will cost the borrowing fees/interest for the upfront payment plus the cost of the replacement player on the AHL team.)

Well, for one, it prevent Wade Redden type situations where NHL calibre players are in the AHL because their performance is not in line with their paycheque - something the PA will probably be a fan of. And, these players count against the cap in the summer. I'm sure the teams would love to be able to free up that space before the end of training camp and free up a spot on their reserve list while they're at it.
 
princedpw said:
That is interesting.  They also have no real constraints on player salaries, do they?  I don't follow baseball.  I can only assume the owners have elected not to try to contain player salaries.  Any thoughts on why the small teams haven't taken control and demanded a clampdown?  Is there some kind of revenue sharing or TV money that changes the dynamics?

I think it's more because MLB lets teams actually tailor their business to their marketplace. There's no spending/salary floors so small market teams that don't win can keep salaries low and the relatively small amount of revenue sharing can make them profitable. They don't indulge in the fantasy the NHL does wherein a couple of good seasons by the Panthers will turn Miami into Toronto South. The Pirates aren't the Yankees, never will be and shouldn't be expected to spend anywhere near them.

The NFL also hasn't missed games in a long time and they have a ton of revenue sharing. Their rigid cap makes a bit of sense when their insanely lucrative TV deals are split evenly.

In their own ways neither league has embraced the hypocrisy of dealing with the players as if they're all for one and one for all and then turning into paragons of Ayn Randian individualism in the boardroom. The NBA/NHL on the other hand have pursued rigid salary constraints(ceiling and floors) on teams while not normalizing revenues in any significant way. It's no wonder that's lead to combative players and divided owners.
 
I think this has pretty much destroyed the Leafs chances at adding anything in free agency.  There are 18 teams below the new cap floor currently.  That ignores teams signing but I think we see another offseason of 4th liner+ guys.  Guys who get 4th line minutes but maybe do some added PK or late game faceoff/checking kind of stuff getting those 1.7-2M kind of contracts that just don't work with Burke's strategy for trading for a bunch of guys who are underperforming and overpaid.
 
interesting piece from the player's point of view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/player-really-stake-nhlpa-collective-bargaining-nhl-141923225--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm sort of surprised they think the threat of another rollback is real. I don't see that happening at all, but hey what do I know.
 
Corn Flake said:
interesting piece from the player's point of view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/player-really-stake-nhlpa-collective-bargaining-nhl-141923225--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm sort of surprised they think the threat of another rollback is real. I don't see that happening at all, but hey what do I know.

This is very, very well written article...I can't help but wonder which player wrote it.
 
Corn Flake said:
interesting piece from the player's point of view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/player-really-stake-nhlpa-collective-bargaining-nhl-141923225--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm sort of surprised they think the threat of another rollback is real. I don't see that happening at all, but hey what do I know.

I can see a rollback of shared revenue between the league and players going down to 54%-50% range. (I think the League will push for a 50-50 revenue split)

Whether that translates to an actual rollback in salaries already on the books, I'm not sure about that.

I assume escrow will be a thing of the past since revenue never dropped during the last CBA.
 
dm_for_pm said:
I assume escrow will be a thing of the past since revenue never dropped during the last CBA.

That's not all that escrow was about, though. Players are entitled to a percentage of league revenue, but, the total value of all player contracts can theoretically exceed that number. Part of the purpose of escrow was to make sure that, in that situation, the owners still didn't pay out more than CBA bound them to.
 
bustaheims said:
dm_for_pm said:
I assume escrow will be a thing of the past since revenue never dropped during the last CBA.

That's not all that escrow was about, though. Players are entitled to a percentage of league revenue, but, the total value of all player contracts can theoretically exceed that number. Part of the purpose of escrow was to make sure that, in that situation, the owners still didn't pay out more than CBA bound them to.

Yeah, and I think it'll go the way of the Dodo.
 
dm_for_pm said:
I can see a rollback of shared revenue between the league and players going down to 54%-50% range. (I think the League will push for a 50-50 revenue split)

Guaranteed the league wants to lower that share to as close to 50% as they can get it.  My thought was they could lower the cap floor to compensate for that drop vs. an individual contract rollback - something else the league is probably going to ask for.  According to that article it's actually at 57% this year so it's a pretty big drop to go down 7%.  Since the NBA got it done with similar percentages, I think the NHL has that leg to stand on.

The players in turn will be pushing for way more revenue sharing to spread out the wealth and opportunity for more teams to get involved in bigger spending.  That is to me where the biggest fight will be.  The richest teams have to hate the idea of increasing it.
 
bustaheims said:
dm_for_pm said:
Yeah, and I think it'll go the way of the Dodo.

No way the owners go for that. They want that percentage fixed. The only way to ensure that is escrow.

You could be right. I'm just speculating but I could see an agreement where the players lower there % of HRR to around 50% in exchange for the league doing away with escrow.

I find these negotiations interesting because they're not revamping the system like last time. It's more like tweaking what's already there.

If I were a player I'd hate escrow way more than the hard salary cap.
 
dm_for_pm said:
You could be right. I'm just speculating but I could see an agreement where the players lower there % of HRR to around 50% in exchange for the league doing away with escrow.

The problem with that is that is makes that 50% number essentially meaningless. It becomes a guideline for the league to set the cap numbers from, but, with front-loaded contracts, diversity in team spending, etc, removing escrow means there's no reasonable way to prevent the players from earning more than their allotted percentage of HRR in real dollars, or, on the flip side, to prevent owners from paying less than that number. Escrow is there to protect both parties.
 
bustaheims said:
dm_for_pm said:
You could be right. I'm just speculating but I could see an agreement where the players lower there % of HRR to around 50% in exchange for the league doing away with escrow.

The problem with that is that is makes that 50% number essentially meaningless. It becomes a guideline for the league to set the cap numbers from, but, with front-loaded contracts, diversity in team spending, etc, removing escrow means there's no reasonable way to prevent the players from earning more than their allotted percentage of HRR in real dollars, or, on the flip side, to prevent owners from paying less than that number. Escrow is there to protect both parties.

I guess there needs to be some sort of escrow to account for front loaded contracts but how does it prevent owners form paying less than the agreed upon percentage?

I thought players are only paid up to 100% of their contracts. If revenues skyrocket do players earn more than 100% of their contracts?
 
louisstamos said:
Corn Flake said:
interesting piece from the player's point of view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/player-really-stake-nhlpa-collective-bargaining-nhl-141923225--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm sort of surprised they think the threat of another rollback is real. I don't see that happening at all, but hey what do I know.

This is very, very well written article...I can't help but wonder which player wrote it.

The bolded part of this quote:
"Bettman got the system he wanted, one that he assured us would give us 30 healthy teams."
is simply not accurate. Bettman maintained that this CBA would not solve all of the leagues financial problems but that with cost certainty via the cap, it was a major step in the right direction (something to that effect).

I agree that more needs to be done with revenue sharing. I also think the cap floor should be tied closer to league revenues rather than the $16 mil spread - which will also provide smaller market teams some relief.

But the notion that NHL players should take 57% of NHL revenues when the NFL and NBA (both leagues that enjoy much larger revenue which makes fixed costs per revenue dollar less) take 50% or less is not a winning argument. To line up with those CBA deals, the NHL players should arguably take less than 50% of revenues because NHL revenue is the smallest - but that won't happen this time either.

What must happen is some movement downward from the players current slice of 57% of revenues closer to the 50% level. If the players won't budge, I'd lock them out too and I'm largely for the players to get the best deal they can within reason.
 
dm_for_pm said:
I guess there needs to be some sort of escrow to account for front loaded contracts but how does it prevent owners form paying less than the agreed upon percentage?

I thought players are only paid up to 100% of their contracts. If revenues skyrocket do players earn more than 100% of their contracts?

The players are guaranteed a set percentage of HRR (right now, 54% min, 57% max). No matter what total salaries add up to, the owners have to pay out 54% of HRR to the players under the current agreement - which means, in the event player salaries are below their fixed cut, instead of the players paying into escrow, the owners would have to pay into escrow to meet the 54% (or whatever it may become) number.
 
I think the player has sort of struck at what's the fundamental problem with the league's position. What the last CBA has 100% conclusively proven is that adopting one set of rules and percentages for 30 separate businesses each with their own set of problems and circumstances just won't work.

No matter what the percentage of revenues the players get is, it doesn't make sense to treat the Toronto Maple Leafs the same as the Phoenix Coyotes.

The Leafs average ticket price is higher than any other team in sports aside from two football teams. Their revenues are gigantic. They're making tons of money. They neither need or deserve to be taking a bigger percentage of that money home.

The League could address a lot of what ails them internally via revenue sharing. That they're going to choose to try to address it with another labour war will probably work for them because I don't think these players will be on board with missing paychecks and it's not like the public has ever been fair to players in these circumstances but there's no fair intellectual argument for it.
 
Wrote a new article for TMLFans about front loaded contracts and the new CBA.

http://www.tmlfans.ca/blogs/6390-wild-speculation

I'll just quote the important part here...

[quote author=Kevin Striukas]
So what is the ideal solution to the problem of front loaded contracts? The NHL could just copy the NBA?s model of having players only able to sign contracts for a maximum length of five years. This solution would be the quickest and easiest way to avoid breaking the rules for cap circumvention due to front loaded contracts as it would be impossible to tack on extra years to lower the cap hit for players.
[/quote]

 
Well, the ideal solution would be simply be to grant NHL owners the rights of Prima Nocte. That'd put the uppity serfs in their place.
 
Nik? said:
I think the player has sort of struck at what's the fundamental problem with the league's position. What the last CBA has 100% conclusively proven is that adopting one set of rules and percentages for 30 separate businesses each with their own set of problems and circumstances just won't work.

Factually, that isn't what they did. The top revenue teams contribute to the bottom revenue teams. The Leafs contribute the most to revenue sharing. So there is a variable scale. As well, there is a cap floor which allows smaller market teams to spend less. Therefore, the percentages vary with each team.

Having said that, I agree that they should do more with revenue sharing to help but I'd lock the players out if they won't also share some that burden.

Now if they had tied the cap floor to the % of revenue growth rather than the fixed $16 mil spread, that would be a better formula for the smaller markets and one rule for all that could work pretty well financially - much better than where they are now. Offsetting that would be how much competitive balance would shift so they'd have to be careful on how far they go. But it's too extreme right now - they need to adjust the spread with some relationship to revenues - not a fixed $16 mil spread.

The notion one set of rules cannot be come up with to do a better job than the set they started out with seems flawed. In fact, this was largely known and anticipated when they started out with the current CBA but they had to start somewhere. They weren't going to get it 100% the first time as both the players and the revenue sharing contributors had to make significant concessions as it was to get as far as they did.

Now that it's been worked with, this time, they have numbers audited by both parties over the duration of this deal so there should be less bickering about the NHL facts vs the nonsense Goodenow made up. The solutions should be more obvious based upon proven numbers.

But here's a real problem I think the players will have trying to pitch your position: NBA revenues are about 43% higher than the NHL. NFL revenues are over 300% of the NHL's. Why should the NHL player be entitled to a bigger % of the revenue pie than the NBA or NFL players when he isn't drawing nearly as much revenue for his sport and therefore, the fixed costs per revenue dollar are very likely higher for the NHL? The Leafs and Habs may be making out like bandits but most NHL teams are not. It's not the Leafs nor Habs responsibility to exclusively carry the league.

When so many teams are having problems with their bottom lines in spite of respectable revenue growth, although significantly improved from the 2004 CBA, how can someone say "well keep your hands off 57% of the expense problem" with a straight face? It's not going to happen or if it does, there will be another lockout.

There are several adjustments needed to address the problems. Revenue sharing, the cap floor and the players 57% share of the revenue are obvious as some of them that need adjustment.

Beyond the dollars in a given year, the mantra of the players wanting to do what is best for their players in the future should consider what will happen to the sport if they get these smaller franchises on a better financial footing: they'll grow the sport and the league revenues longer term more than if they let the current situation persist.
 
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