2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Kin]

Sure, but, when the PA has been told repeatedly that the owners don't believe a certain framework isn't going to work, they shouldn't keep coming back with the same framework just with different numbers. They should be coming back with a different framework - whether it's one that's fully linked, partially linked or something we haven't seen at all. We know the owners would prefer a linked framework, so, just flat out ignoring that isn't going to get a deal done either.

But that speaks to what I'm saying is the central problem with what the position the owners are taking. I'm sure the PA would love to propose a fixed link if they got to tinker with other things. If they, for instance, could propose a deal with a fixed link but without a hard cap they'd dive right in. If they could propose a deal with a fixed link but one that has them at 57% of HRR we know they'd agree to that.

The issue isn't that the fixed link is sacrosanct, it's that it's sacrosanct along with the hard cap and the immediate reduction in player's share and the ultimately targeted share and so on. The NHL is demanding, essentially, that 90% of the economic framework of the deal has to be what they want it to be or else any deal proposed by the PA is a non-starter. That's not an invitation to a creative offer.

 

[caver]

I'm intrigued by the rumours of a soft cap or luxury tax. As a Leaf fan it suits the situation and the tax collected from big market teams like the Leafs or the Rangers could prop up the small market teams. 

 

[Deebo]

This lockout puts a damper on Mats' HOF induction weekend coming up.

 

[maplesyrup]

It sure does. For me anyway it's just, I don't know, "blah."

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I don't disagree with that at all. And your point of them needing to speak the same language goes both ways does it not?

Sure, but, the owners are speaking the same language that the players have been working and profiting under for 7 seasons. The players are trying to get them to speak a language the owners refused to work with in the last lockout, and has already cost the league a season.

Well you may be correct there, but the players are arguing that the previous 7 years didn't work(or that continuing under the same system will land them in the same situation when this eventual CBA is signed.) Sure it worked for the players pocket books..But apparently it didn't work for the league as they're crying poor again.

 

[Leafaholic99]

This lockout puts a damper on Mats' HOF induction weekend coming up.

Meh, seems fitting that the year the NHL and PA can't decide on playing, that Mats is being inducted

 

[maplesyrup]

If this thread dies at about oh, 115-120 pages, I'll be a very happy camper.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If this thread dies at about oh, 115-120 pages, I'll be a very happy camper.

I was thinking 87 - 88 pages but I've never been known to be realistic

 

[bustaheims]

I was thinking 87 - 88 pages but I've never been known to be realistic

Even if the lockout ends tonight (as unlikely as that is), there will be at least 10 pages of discussion on the details of the new CBA.

 

[Redleaf]

I was thinking 87 - 88 pages but I've never been known to be realistic

Even if the lockout ends tonight (as unlikely as that is), there will be at least 10 pages of discussion on the details of the new CBA.

Yep. We're heading toward the century mark on this bad baby either way. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I was thinking 87 - 88 pages but I've never been known to be realistic

Even if the lockout ends tonight (as unlikely as that is), there will be at least 10 pages of discussion on the details of the new CBA.

Well thank you mr obvious haha

 

[hockeyfan1]

This lockout puts a damper on Mats' HOF induction weekend coming up.

Meh, seems fitting that the year the NHL and PA can't decide on playing, that Mats is being inducted

....in what would have been the Hall of Fame game.  (sigh) But anyway, I'm happy for Mats. 

 

[Kin]

Under NHL's cap proposal, bonuses wouldn't count towards cap minimum

I find this remarkable. With even some of the more pro-owner folks around here saying that they should shift some of the burden from the poorer teams to the richer ones by way of widening the gap between the cap ceiling and the cap floor the NHL actually wants to make reaching the cap floor more expensive for the lower revenue clubs.

Also, I do think the de facto cap this would impose on AHL salaries is a fairly significant change, especially with the Marlies gaining a bit of a foothold with hockey fans in the city.

 

[Frank E]

Under NHL's cap proposal, bonuses wouldn't count towards cap minimum

I find this remarkable. With even some of the more pro-owner folks around here saying that they should shift some of the burden from the poorer teams to the richer ones by way of widening the gap between the cap ceiling and the cap floor the NHL actually wants to make reaching the cap floor more expensive for the lower revenue clubs.

Also, I do think the de facto cap this would impose on AHL salaries is a fairly significant change, especially with the Marlies gaining a bit of a foothold with hockey fans in the city.

I agree, it seems a little puzzling.

Maybe with the addition of further revenue sharing, the league wants a true cap spend to even the playing field...much like how they seem to want the cap hit on multi-year deals to be the actual salary for that year. 

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Under NHL's cap proposal, bonuses wouldn't count towards cap minimum

I find this remarkable. With even some of the more pro-owner folks around here saying that they should shift some of the burden from the poorer teams to the richer ones by way of widening the gap between the cap ceiling and the cap floor the NHL actually wants to make reaching the cap floor more expensive for the lower revenue clubs.

Also, I do think the de facto cap this would impose on AHL salaries is a fairly significant change, especially with the Marlies gaining a bit of a foothold with hockey fans in the city.

Not an owner guy at all, but would the bonus amounts come close to the AHL Salaries over $105,000 that's being talked about?

I have no idea how many guys on the Marlies, or the Phoenix and Columbus affiliates, make that kind of money.

If the bonuses would be significantly more then it's a really weird move

 

[bustaheims]

Not an owner guy at all, but would the bonus amounts come close to the AHL Salaries over $105,000 that's being talked about?

I have no idea how many guys on the Marlies, or the Phoenix and Columbus affiliates, make that kind of money.

If the bonuses would be significantly more then it's a really weird move

I imagine, for most teams, the AHL/other league hit would be significantly more. Any player on an NHL contract is set to earn at least $550K, and since it wasn't clear whether this rule change impacted only players on 1-way deals or not, that would mean every team in the league would have at least ~$5M (12-ish guys on NHL deals) down there. I like the principle of the rule - prevent teams from stashing NHL calibre players in the AHL because their cap hit is too high - but, the specifics they proposed really don't work. The dollar figure where the cut off is needs to be at least the league minimum, if not higher, and/or players on 2-way deals, ELCs, etc, should not be impacted by it. Instead of basing it purely on salary, NHL experience should be a factor as well.

 

[Kin]

Not an owner guy at all, but would the bonus amounts come close to the AHL Salaries over $105,000 that's being talked about?

Probably not but that's a temporary thing. As the article points out, in all likelihood that would cap AHL salaries at whatever the number is that wouldn't count against the cap.

And I think most of the concerns about having NHL players in the AHL are overblown. The idea of "stashing" them sort of connotes that they're useful pieces being hidden in reserve when what we've actually seen in the last seven years is that the guys who get demoted with legitimate money owed to them are fringe-y NHL players who got overpaid or guys who played themselves out of the league. The ability to put Jeff Finger in the minors, for instance, is not a significant issue the league needs to address.

 

[Bullfrog]

Under NHL's cap proposal, bonuses wouldn't count towards cap minimum

I find this remarkable. With even some of the more pro-owner folks around here saying that they should shift some of the burden from the poorer teams to the richer ones by way of widening the gap between the cap ceiling and the cap floor the NHL actually wants to make reaching the cap floor more expensive for the lower revenue clubs.

Also, I do think the de facto cap this would impose on AHL salaries is a fairly significant change, especially with the Marlies gaining a bit of a foothold with hockey fans in the city.

I think the intent is to discourage offering bonuses at all. Though it certainly wouldn't have any impact on the teams above the floor.

 

[bustaheims]

I think the intent is to discourage offering bonuses at all. Though it certainly wouldn't have any impact on the teams above the floor.

I'm not so sure that's true. This was more of a shot at the Charles Wangs/New York Islanders of the league. Basically, the league is saying try to field a competitive team instead of using loopholes and running your team into the ground, and, while I agree something needs to be done about owners like Wang (well, really, just him specifically - there aren't really any others who have used bonuses this way consistently), I don't think this is the right way to go about it.

 

[hockeyfan1]

This was more of a shot at the Charles Wangs/New York Islanders of the league. Basically, the league is saying try to field a competitive team instead of using loopholes and running your team in the ground and, while I agree something needs to be done about owners like Wang (well, really, just him specifically - there aren't really any others who have used bonuses this way consistently), I don't think this is the right way to go about it.

It may not be the right way, but at least the league is addressing a concern here.  If Wang types start fielding a better and more competitive (not to mention respectable) team on ice, then by all means it will be an improvement for the overall product in general.