2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[cabber24]

Why did Fehr feel the need to address the media and how could he be so completely wrong about how close he thought they were? What planet is this guy on?

He made himself and all the players look like idiots, all while pissing off the owners and taking a huge step backwards is resolving this mess. I think he is a complete idiot for addressing the media the way he did. I don't want to hear anything from either side until the deal is done. All I want to know is that their meeting 10+ hours a day trying to get this thing done.

 

[Corn Flake]

Apparently Hainsey stated that after the players said they were going to bring Fehr in, the NHL said "that could be a deal breaker"....Wow...atta negotiate NHL

And the league kept Gary out... that would be the trade off, aka: negotiation.

CLEARLY both sides prefer to work without the head on the other side, and it WAS working.. why would they not want to continue that way?

 

[Corn Flake]

I really think Fehr is current problem. Fire Him and get rid of Bettman's style of dication negotiation is wrong. Get rid of him as well.

It's interesting that things were all rosy and optimistic this week until they brought Bettman and Fehr back to the table. Then things fell apart. Their disdain for each other is so strong that it's holding up the process of getting a deal done.

Bettman never did come back to the table, Fehr did.  Process blew up.  What does that tell you?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Apparently Hainsey stated that after the players said they were going to bring Fehr in, the NHL said "that could be a deal breaker"....Wow...atta negotiate NHL

And the league kept Gary out... that would be the trade off, aka: negotiation.

CLEARLY both sides prefer to work without the head on the other side, and it WAS working.. why would they not want to continue that way?

Saying that having the PA's hired representative involved would blow up any deal is NOT negotiation.

The NHL was refusing to negotiate with the PA's nominated rep/lawyer - how is that anything but bad faith negotiating?  There were questions/suggestions by lawyers on twitter that it may even contravene US labor law (although nobody can say for sure).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I really think Fehr is current problem. Fire Him and get rid of Bettman's style of dication negotiation is wrong. Get rid of him as well.

It's interesting that things were all rosy and optimistic this week until they brought Bettman and Fehr back to the table. Then things fell apart. Their disdain for each other is so strong that it's holding up the process of getting a deal done.

Bettman never did come back to the table, Fehr did.  Process blew up.  What does that tell you?

Nothing, other than maybe the owners are being childish.

 

[Bates]

If and that's a big IF the talk last night is too be believed both the NHL and the NHLPA say they agree on the money side of a new agreement and where there differ is on the issues of Agreement length and Contract length.  The league says these 2 issues were conditions for the league to agree on the so-called "make whole" provision.  There is a 3rd condition which I can't seem to recall???

My question here is why the players are so adamant about these 2 conditions.  On the 5 year contract length, while these have increased in numbers, they are still available to far less than 10% of the players in the league and that's unlikely to ever become the norm for the vast majority of the league.  The length of the agreement seems to be a really trivial detail in all of this.  The league has proposed a 10 year agreement with an out clause from either side after 8 years.  Players have offered 8 year agreement with player out after 6 years.  Not sure what makes the 2 years worth the risk to this season.

Seriously even if you are a staunch player supporter how the hell can you justify kicking the 4 owners who came to NY to talk in the last few days trying to save the season by sending back an offer that went against the very grain of what they told you they needed in an agreement?  Especially when the 2 issues mean so little to the vast majority of your union.  This makes no sense.

 

[Corn Flake]

@adater From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

Fehr is just fecking around now. This is a game to him and he has 700 pawns to play with in that PA.  Sure sounded to me like they were good to accept what the owners had agreed to with them, but no... Fehr says to throw one last hail mary at them.  Boom.  We have complete implosion.

For anyone to believe the owners orchestrated that whole thing last night you would have to believe they planned in advance to reject it within minutes and come out with an act in that press conference so overly dramatic, and then the subsequent releases from the various owners expressing their frustration at how well things had gone only to blow up with this offer. 

It's a lot easier for me to believe that Fehr decided to throw in some changes last minute that blew this whole thing up, than it is for me to believe the NHL faked up that whole reaction last night.  That was about as honest as I've ever seen Bettman... and Daly right beside him sealed it for me. They thought it was over.  Fehr wants to keep playing the game.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

@adater From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

Fehr is just fecking around now. This is a game to him and he has 700 pawns to play with in that PA.  Sure sounded to me like they were good to accept what the owners had agreed to with them, but no... Fehr says to throw one last hail mary at them.  Boom.  We have complete implosion.

For anyone to believe the owners orchestrated that whole thing last night you would have to believe they planned in advance to reject it within minutes and come out with an act in that press conference so overly dramatic, and then the subsequent releases from the various owners expressing their frustration at how well things had gone only to blow up with this offer. 

It's a lot easier for me to believe that Fehr decided to throw in some changes last minute that blew this whole thing up, than it is for me to believe the NHL faked up that whole reaction last night.  That was about as honest as I've ever seen Bettman... and Daly right beside him sealed it for me. They thought it was over.  Fehr wants to keep playing the game.

But you're just taking Bettman for his word and rejecting Fehr's, and using one anonymous player source to back it up.  Who knows, for all we know it could be Roman Hamrlik again, and plenty of players spoke out against what he said as not being reality before.

What if Bettman had a presser and said everything he said last night, and then Fehr had his and said exactly what he said in his?  Would Bettman now be the one 'playing the game' and the liar?

    David Perron ‏@DP_57:
People saying only small group informed on the NHLPA side is wrong, players can attend any meeting, conf call with travel/hotel paid by PA

If they arent informed it's their own fault & they should be and probably are supporting PA, if not they can call with questions at any time

@BrandonPrust8 I'm done caring.. We keep moving and giving.. This 1 way street sucks

@Dustinpenner25 Fehr works for the players.He has vast knowledge&experience in this matter.It's laughable to entertain ideas that he has a hidden agenda.

There is absolutely no evidence that Fehr is just 'fecking around now'.  He's doing what he's paid to do - get the best deal possible for the players.

How does it surely sound to you like they were good to accept what the owners offered?  One anonymous source?

Sidney Crosby's agent, Pat Brisson, said he talked with Pens owner Burkle and understood that the 2 sides were close and expected a deal on Thursday or Friday.  If the two sides weren't close, like Bettman says, why would his agent have that opinion after talking with one of the owners who was involved in the negotiations?

 

[Bates]

The owners thought a deal was close because when they offered the extra make whole money it came with conditions on contract leangth and agreement length that the owners said were conditions of make whole money.  They thought the players had agreed with them.  Obviously Fehr did not.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Things were going swimmingly on Wednesday night. A few details needed to be hammered out, but the players felt confident with where talks were headed?confident enough that they suggested federal mediators return to help "polish this off," as Hainsey said.

The owners declined.

"As confident as some of players are on their issues, we cannot close deals. I'd love to think I could," Hainsey said, "We cannot."

Steve Fehr was there, but the job of closing the deal belongs to Donald Fehr. He is the executive director of the NHLPA, after all.

"Once we made clear that ... we had to get our union leadership, that we've hired for this, in the room, there was just a very big change," Hainsey said on Thursday, after talks broke down. "It was alarming, and I was told that if we were going to do that, it was possibly a dealbreaker. That was made clear last night. It was confusing, because we kind of agreed that we were moving toward each other, and we weren't that far apart. So, it's confusing for the players to think that we were supposed to finish this ourselves."

Hainsey was then asked to confirm, point blank, what he had just said: The owners told you that bringing Don Fehr into the room would be a dealbreaker for the progress you had achieved?

"That's correct," Hainsey said.

As much as the NHL has done to publicly vilify Fehr over the course of negotiations, including the end-around attempt of publishing a previous CBA offer on NHL.com, this is a new low.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-12-06/nhl-lockout-news-donald-fehr-owners-gary-bettman-ron-hainsey-hockey-strike?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=jessespector

 

[Redleaf]

@adater From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

Fehr is just fecking around now. This is a game to him and he has 700 pawns to play with in that PA.  Sure sounded to me like they were good to accept what the owners had agreed to with them, but no... Fehr says to throw one last hail mary at them.  Boom.  We have complete implosion.

For anyone to believe the owners orchestrated that whole thing last night you would have to believe they planned in advance to reject it within minutes and come out with an act in that press conference so overly dramatic, and then the subsequent releases from the various owners expressing their frustration at how well things had gone only to blow up with this offer. 

It's a lot easier for me to believe that Fehr decided to throw in some changes last minute that blew this whole thing up, than it is for me to believe the NHL faked up that whole reaction last night.  That was about as honest as I've ever seen Bettman... and Daly right beside him sealed it for me. They thought it was over.  Fehr wants to keep playing the game.

The problem isn't Fehr here. Both sides have been playing games throughout this entire process. I do agree he pushed the envelop one more time, and the owners are pissed because of it. I think the best thing Fehr could do now is to put it to a vote. The biggest issue now isn't how 'far apart' the two sides are, it's which side is willing to except the others offer to end this. Optics.

 

[Kin]

And the league kept Gary out... that would be the trade off, aka: negotiation.

CLEARLY both sides prefer to work without the head on the other side, and it WAS working.. why would they not want to continue that way?

Because at the end of the day Fehr and Bettman, while opposite numbers, don't really have the same realities when it comes to who they represent. Bettman is representing 30 clubs and many of the owners have experience in the CBA process. Fehr is representing 700+ players who hire agents to negotiate all of their deals. Regardless of what traction might be made in a meeting between a small group of players/owners, the head of the PA was always going to be involved with the final deal.

 

[cabber24]

Why was Fehr even talking to the media last night?

 

[Stronger Than All]

Awesome, didn't pay attention since yesterday afternoon and this is what I hear on the radio this morning. 

 

[Redleaf]

Why was Fehr even talking to the media last night?

Public support to put pressure on the owners to end this. It obviously backfired, but I really don't think the owners are packing up their toys and pulling the plug because of it. It was a calculated gamble that failed. He now needs to move a few more inches toward the owners proposal and hope for the best. This thing is close, but Fehr is still fighting for the best possible deal. Can't blame him for that. As I said above the best thing he could do is to backtrack and hold a secret vote to see where the players stand on the leagues last proposal. If he doesn't do this than he may have pushed a little too far.

 

[Corn Flake]

Why was Fehr even talking to the media last night?

Public support to put pressure on the owners to end this. It obviously backfired, but I really don't think the owners are packing up their toys and pulling the plug because of it. It was a calculated gamble that failed. He now needs to move a few more inches toward the owners proposal and hope for the best. This thing is close, but Fehr is still fighting for the best possible deal. Can't blame him for that. As I said above he now needs to hold a secret vote and see where the players stand on the leagues last proposal. If he doesn't do this than he may have pushed a little too far.

The question on the backfire is what the players are thinking today..do they feel they took Fehr's advice and it blew up or is he going to keep them thinking the big bad owners did this to them?  I think the smarter ones should be thinking the former rather than the latter by now, especially spending 3 days with owners and hearing their thoughts directly.

The league will probably sit and wait to see if the PA does anything today, and going by how Fehr operates, he probably won't do a thing... but the NHL should get on paper what THEY thought the final deal was going to be yesterday and publicize the heck out of it.. they need to the players to get to a vote on it. The players will read it and the ones in that room will know what is truth and what is a change.

 

[Kin]

My question here is why the players are so adamant about these 2 conditions.  On the 5 year contract length, while these have increased in numbers, they are still available to far less than 10% of the players in the league and that's unlikely to ever become the norm for the vast majority of the league.  The length of the agreement seems to be a really trivial detail in all of this.  The league has proposed a 10 year agreement with an out clause from either side after 8 years.  Players have offered 8 year agreement with player out after 6 years.  Not sure what makes the 2 years worth the risk to this season.

Well, if that's the thought process then why are the owners so adamant about them as well?

 

[cabber24]

Why was Fehr even talking to the media last night?

Public support to put pressure on the owners to end this. It obviously backfired, but I really don't think the owners are packing up their toys and pulling the plug because of it. It was a calculated gamble that failed. He now needs to move a few more inches toward the owners proposal and hope for the best. This thing is close, but Fehr is still fighting for the best possible deal. Can't blame him for that. As I said above he now needs to backtrack and hold a secret vote to see where the players stand on the leagues last proposal. If he doesn't do this than he may have pushed a little too far.

Did it ever backfire?

I don't think using the fans as pawns helps either side. In fact, it pisses me off as a fan. I would love to kick both Bettman and Fehr in the balls.

 

[Bates]

There are a number of reasons the owners want the 5 years contract.  They are easier to insure.  They give you less chance to make a long term mistake.  They give less chance of system being cheated.  They help motivate players a little more.  The longer agreement is obvious, it gives stability to league.

 

[Kin]

There are a number of reasons the owners want the 5 years contract.

I didn't ask why they want them. I know why. I can make a list just as quickly as to why players want the ability to sign longer term deals. I asked that if the thought process was that there's not a significant difference or it's a matter that affects very few players why either side would view it as life and death. You can't say it makes sense for one and not the other.