GhostofPotvin29
New member
lamajama said:
Well the Leafs still have their 1st rounders.
Ashton up, Holland down
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
Well the Leafs still have their 1st rounders.
Giving this some more thought...
If the choice is between Kadri/Holland it seems the Leafs are giving Kadri as much rope as he needs, if the choice is between McClement/Holland they've determined McClement is taking the shutdown duties completely with Bolland out, on the surface at least.
Holland is ill served playing 4th line minutes and Ashton has earned a callup.
We'll see how it goes but they could also be looking at running with 7d for a while.
It's highly doubtful Holland won't be back but, short term, protecting the pick is the thing to do.
If the choice is between Kadri/Holland it seems the Leafs are giving Kadri as much rope as he needs, if the choice is between McClement/Holland they've determined McClement is taking the shutdown duties completely with Bolland out, on the surface at least.
Holland is ill served playing 4th line minutes and Ashton has earned a callup.
We'll see how it goes but they could also be looking at running with 7d for a while.
It's highly doubtful Holland won't be back but, short term, protecting the pick is the thing to do.
L K
Active member
Tigger said:
What message does it really send? If you are young and productive your lineup spot is in jeopardy? This strikes me as nothing more than Nonis validating Carlyle's use of Holland. I don't really want to see the GM demanding ice-time for players either, but he's accepting that Carlyle won't play Holland and thus sent him to the AHL.
This does not send a message to anyone. Maybe the next "message" will be to bench Rielly again.
bustaheims
Active member
Tigger said:
If it's a message to the players, it's a stupid one. Really, it's "This guy was one of our best players, but now, because the coach isn't using him, we're sending him to the minors. Shape up." I mean, come on. If it says anything to the players, it's that performance doesn't matter.
bustaheims said:
As I said above promoting Ashton has a point but also that Holland ( in the opinion of the coaching staff ) wasn't able to defend as well as McClement nor beat Kadri out for the second line spot.
I'm not in the room so I don't know if there are other issues but Nonis mitigating things short term is fine by me, protect that asset and see how Holland responds with lots of minutes in the A.
LittleHockeyFan
Moderator
is all I can say on the matter
bustaheims
Active member
Tigger said:
What message? "We know you haven't played as well as we expect you to recently, Naz, so we're rewarding you by sending down the guy who should have taken your spot on the 2nd line?" "Hey, Carter, you've been great for the Marlies. Here, play 6 minutes a night for us for a couple weeks, maybe sit int he press box a couple times and we'll send you back to somewhere you'll get ice time with useful line mates?"
Kadri knows the team isn't going to send him to the Marlies, because they're not going to risk losing him on waivers. There's no message here for him. As for Ashton, unless they actually use him in an offensive role, there's nothing here for him either except a few extra bucks in his wallet.
bustaheims said:
I suppose the message to Kadri is that you're going to be given the opportunity to work through a down spot, that he isn't going to have his ice time removed with Holland in his place. You're right in that there is an order of operations that leaves Holland as the yo yo but there's more to it than just up or down, they could have put Kadri in the pressbox too.
The difference in money for Ashton isn't insignificant and I imagine there's some trickle down to the rest of the Marlies too.
Don't get me wrong here, for those that might think I agree with the moves I don't really, I'm trying to get a read on the reason for it. From what I know ( which is limited ) I would have tried Holland back with Lupul and Raymond, put Kadri with Kulemin and, presumably Clarkson if healthy and had McClement with D'Amigo and someone, maybe Ashton, depending on the scope of the roster limitations.
Also, if the Leafs have determined they're going with 7 d then it adds a wrinkle.
Also, if the Leafs have determined they're going with 7 d then it adds a wrinkle.
bustaheims
Active member
bradyfan590: Have heard from several Nonis was less than thrilled w/ how Carlyle used Peter Holland last night, decision to send to AHL was two-fold...
bradyfan590: 1. Yes, the R3 pick to R2 pick matters, but 2. This IS a Nonis call...he's stripping an asset from Carlyle b/c of him misusing it.
bradyfan590: Nonis is using the "Carlyle Bullet" sooner or later & he's not trading for a skilled asset who can have a 3pt night v. Chicago who then...
bradyfan590: plays FEWER minutes in a close home game than Orr & McLaren. Leafs mgmt are taking this team back, I'm hearing. Watch what happens next.
bradyfan590: 1. Yes, the R3 pick to R2 pick matters, but 2. This IS a Nonis call...he's stripping an asset from Carlyle b/c of him misusing it.
bradyfan590: Nonis is using the "Carlyle Bullet" sooner or later & he's not trading for a skilled asset who can have a 3pt night v. Chicago who then...
bradyfan590: plays FEWER minutes in a close home game than Orr & McLaren. Leafs mgmt are taking this team back, I'm hearing. Watch what happens next.
Heroic Shrimp
New member
bustaheims said:
Me likey.
bustaheims
Active member
Heroic Shrimp said:
If it's true, so do I. It's about time someone in management put Carlyle on notice. What he has been doing hasn't been working and he needs to know his job is on the line if he doesn't change things to make it work.
BlueWhiteBlood
New member
bustaheims said:
Good! I'm firmly in the "Carlyle is a problem" camp and I'm not one to really bash the coaching.
Holland to the minors makes sense only for this reason, but not to Holland himself, obviously. I think Nonis should take it one step further and put either McLaren or Orr on waivers.
L K
Active member
Does that honestly mean anything? Remember when Nonis "wasn't happy with how Morgan Rielly was being used"? I mean, sure, eventually you can annoy the GM enough that he fires you, but aside from protecting the 2nd round pick, you really aren't taking away an "asset" if Carlyle doesn't view him as one. He clearly doesn't because in two losses in a row, Holland was used similarly, or even less, than Orr/McLaren.
If you were sending a message to Carlyle, you demote McLaren so he isn't a roster option. If you are sending a message to Carlyle you trade Orr (he doesn't really deserve to be waived to the minors over McLaren). If you are sending a message to the coach, you take him into your office and say, things need to change or your neck is on my chopping block.
I wonder how much of that is actually true sentiment though, and how much is just assumption because Nonis traded for Holland and Carlyle wasn't using him. The timing makes sense to demote Holland if he isn't going to play. You don't demote him after the 1st game back by Bozak, and the Winter Classic wasn't a fair assessment either, especially once the team won both games. But when the Leafs got trounced and Orr got played more in the 3rd period, and then Orr/McLaren played more in a loss at home, that kind of forces your hand to do something.
If you were sending a message to Carlyle, you demote McLaren so he isn't a roster option. If you are sending a message to Carlyle you trade Orr (he doesn't really deserve to be waived to the minors over McLaren). If you are sending a message to the coach, you take him into your office and say, things need to change or your neck is on my chopping block.
I wonder how much of that is actually true sentiment though, and how much is just assumption because Nonis traded for Holland and Carlyle wasn't using him. The timing makes sense to demote Holland if he isn't going to play. You don't demote him after the 1st game back by Bozak, and the Winter Classic wasn't a fair assessment either, especially once the team won both games. But when the Leafs got trounced and Orr got played more in the 3rd period, and then Orr/McLaren played more in a loss at home, that kind of forces your hand to do something.
Heroic Shrimp
New member
Tigger said:
Likely his notable second cousin, as always.
bustaheims
Active member
Heroic Shrimp said:
Greg Brady isn't Darren Dreger. Or, is he?
Highlander
Active member
what a frikken team, play lug nuts not young aggressive skaters, like Holland, Ashton and D'Amigo. Hell put McClement on line 3 and make this line a 4th line that plays 10 minutes a game and spells relief for the top lines and scoring support for Bernier/Reimer.
In any case i am not happy with this move, we all seem to share this thought. Randy needs to be told a few things with Tim and Dave.
Tim doesnt like to lose and the recent acquisitions by Toronto FC are nothing short of amazing. He just will not support a culture of losing. Got rid of Colangelo and has a real good GM with the Raptors, who would have thought?now if we can just buy the Blue Jays and let Tim imprint on them.
In any case i am not happy with this move, we all seem to share this thought. Randy needs to be told a few things with Tim and Dave.
Tim doesnt like to lose and the recent acquisitions by Toronto FC are nothing short of amazing. He just will not support a culture of losing. Got rid of Colangelo and has a real good GM with the Raptors, who would have thought?now if we can just buy the Blue Jays and let Tim imprint on them.