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B Grade Prospects

Kin

New member
So something has been on my mind the last couple of days. Like most people I think this is a big off-season for the Leafs. One where they have a ton of opportunity to take advantage of other teams cap situations and have a bunch of their own intriguing assets who are sort of edging their way into superfluousness. As a result I've been brainstorming some pretty lofty trade proposals(Vatanen, the #3 pick). Usually these involve including some of the team's lesser prospect talent. However whenever I propose throwing someone like Hyman or Soshnikov or Leipsic into a deal someone says "I don't know, I kind of like Hyman/Leipsic/Soshnikov. Do you suppose they'd be inclined to take a couple of rusty cans and a garbage bag full of leaves* instead"

*Or Josh Leivo

And instead of going on about how, if you're making a good trade you're probably going to have to part with assets you like, it's got me thinking about just how many interesting second tier forward prospects the Leafs have and how that's a good problem to have but it does sort of present a question. Aside from just the sheer number of contracts, the reality is that the Leafs have a ton of picks in the next few drafts so they'll almost certainly be adding more guys like that to the mix. Throw in the 2035 and 2036 second round picks we got from San Jose in the Polak deal and the possibility of signing Jimmy Vesey and the Leafs figure to be bursting at the seams with intriguing pretty good prospects for a while now.

So if we can group the Leafs forward prospects into three categories, where A's are the blue chippers, B's are the guys with promise and C's are the guys who are barely prospects/might not get contracts I think it looks something like this:

A's:

Marner
Nylander
Johnny Numberonepick

B:

Kapanen
Leipsic
Hyman
Soshnikov
Gauthier
Bracco
Timashov
Dzierkals
Brown
Johnson
Piccinich?

Group C:

Everyone not yet mentioned(although I may have forgotten someone)


Like I said, this isn't a problem. If you figure everyone from group A is going to make the Leafs next year and a handful of guys from group B will as well, then once you subtract the guys who are probably going back to junior you just have a pretty good group for the Marlies.

But it does, I think, raise an interesting opportunity. Of the 11 guys there in group B, you have to figure that some of them are interesting pieces to work into deals to maybe look for some A graders on defense(where all we have are B pieces) or in net(where we might not even have that).

So I guess the point of this post is to raise the question of how you rank the guys in Group B. Who are the guys you really want to see stick around, who do you think are relatively expendable at this point and how should the Leafs deal with this interesting glut?
 
To avoid answering your interesting questions, here's one of my own. I think thn had the leafs ranked sixth in their Future Watch issue. Do you think we should be higher say in the top three?
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
To avoid answering your interesting questions, here's one of my own. I think thn had the leafs ranked sixth in their Future Watch issue. Do you think we should be higher say in the top three?

Maybe? I don't know enough about the other organizations to really rank it. The Leafs lack of blue chippers on the backend and almost nothing in net seem to be pretty big deficiencies at this point though.
 
After this draft we will move up for sure, in the sheer number of picks and that Hunter is picking.
I like your thought lines on this Nik, good questions.
 
Sounds like you think a lot about our conversations!

Your list only has the forwards (but since those are sexier, they're more memorable). I'll throw in the Defense separately. I split each B-group into 1,2,3, where 1s are projected top NHL contributors or high ceiling, and 2s are serviceable or in development, and 3s are basically Cs and not really ranked (rusty cans and garbage bag of leaves).

B-Forwards
1: Brown, Johnson, Timashov, Kapanen, Soshnikov, Hyman
2: Bracco, Gauthier, Leipsic, Dzierkals, Leivo, Korostelev
3: S. Carrick, Piccinich, Cameranesi, Engvall, Vesey
C: Herzog, Joshua, Toninato, Rupert

B-Defense
1: Zaitsev, Marincin, C.Carrick, Dermott, Corrado, Valiev
2: Loov, Percy, Harrington, Neilsen, Lindgren
3: Desrocher
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
To avoid answering your interesting questions, here's one of my own. I think thn had the leafs ranked sixth in their Future Watch issue. Do you think we should be higher say in the top three?

Corey Pronman had them ranked 2nd before the season started. HockeysFuture's fall rankings had them 4th. Assuming that Nylander is still considered a prospect by them I'd be pretty shocked if a pool consisting of Nylander/Marner/Matthews wasn't at least top-2.
 
Nik the Trik said:
So I guess the point of this post is to raise the question of how you rank the guys in Group B. Who are the guys you really want to see stick around, who do you think are relatively expendable at this point and how should the Leafs deal with this interesting glut?

I guess the sort of obvious group that would be relatively expendable at this point would be guys that are no longer waiver exempt and are less likely to crack the opening night roster for next season. So, to me, that's guys like Leipsic, Smith, and Leivo up front, and Percy, Harrington, and Loov on D (and, yes, I recognize some of these guys aren't B grade prospects). There may not be a lot of value in these guys, but they'd be the ones I'd focus on trying to include in deals to sweeten the pot a little. They're mostly victims of the depth in the system with the Leafs, and there's still NHL potential there for most of them. I'd probably wait on the rest - some look like they could be significant pieces of the team for a few years, others haven't played a pro game yet - but, I don't think there are any there that I'd absolutely refuse to move.

Of course, if no worthwhile deal comes to fruition, I'd look to make another Grabner type deal - ship out some of the lesser guys that are under contract (particularly those that need to clear waivers), and take back a one year cap problem. Maybe one with more value than Grabner, as I think the group the Leafs would be shipping out now is better than what they moved last fall.
 
Nik the Trik said:
[...]

B:

Kapanen
Leipsic
Hyman
Soshnikov
Gauthier
Bracco
Timashov
Dzierkals
Brown
Johnson
Piccinich?

[...]

So I guess the point of this post is to raise the question of how you rank the guys in Group B. Who are the guys you really want to see stick around, who do you think are relatively expendable at this point and how should the Leafs deal with this interesting glut?

I don't know how you (we laypeople) can really distinguish them yet. Hyman, Brown, and Soshnikov have demonstrated the ability to play in the NHL and will likely stick, the 2015 picks haven't even made the AHL yet, and for all we know Johnson will be better than any of them... I don't feel comfortable rating Hyman and Brown highly because they've been around longer than Timashov and Bracco.

But given the contract limit and need to start improving the defensemen and goalies in the pool, the Leafs can't really wait around to see who pans out. I expect the Leafs will make mistakes in trading away players who turn out to be good, middle-six contributors, but they'll also get out from under players who don't pan out.
 
B1: Hyman, Soshnikov, Brown

I'm at a point where these guys are basically NHLers. Zach Hyman turns 24 before the season starts. Soshnikov will turn 23 and has 3 years of professional hockey experience under his belt. Brown's 22 years old, and I'm pretty confident he would have been in the NHL this past season if the team played it under a different mandate.

B2: Kapanen, Lindberg, Timashov, Gauthier, Johnson, Leipsic, Bracco

These to me are the forward prospects with the best chance of being contributing NHLers (either in a middle-6 role, or being a pretty darn good 4C in the case of Gauthier). None of them are NHL ready, and with the probable exception of Bracco all will be with the Marlies next season. Leipsic is a name that I keep flip-flopping on. I don't really see a big NHL upside for him, but his AHL numbers are very impressive for his age. Obviously the guy I would feel most comfortable moving from this group.

B3: Leivo, C. Smith, S. Carrick

These are guys who were at one point B2's, but couldn't take the next jump. A cautionary tale that not everyone in the group above will work out. They're good AHLers who probably wouldn't look completely out of place in the NHL for a short period of time, but I don't see them lasting longer than that in the big leagues. I wouldn't even offer Sam Carrick a contract this summer.

C1: Dzierkals, Korostelev, Piccinich

Probably nothing here, but they're still young. Piccinich will need a contract this summer. With how tight we are with the contract limit, he's not really an instant sign for me. Or at least if he is then he's a trade option in a Mason Raymond deal.

C2: Everyone else

Nothing here.
 
agreed on most points, Leivo showed some good scoring touch with the Leafs in his brief stint, but not married to him or S. Carrick at this juncture.  Also Herzog is not being renewed for sure.
 
Deebo said:
I think Dermott, Nielsen and perhaps Valiev could be included in the 'B' group.

For sure. But like I said in the post, I was only thinking about the forwards.
 
mr grieves said:
I don't know how you (we laypeople) can really distinguish them yet. Hyman, Brown, and Soshnikov have demonstrated the ability to play in the NHL and will likely stick, the 2015 picks haven't even made the AHL yet, and for all we know Johnson will be better than any of them... I don't feel comfortable rating Hyman and Brown highly because they've been around longer than Timashov and Bracco.

I suppose I was just looking for a general sense of how people felt about them. Who they were most excited by even it was just based on scouting reports/junior or AHL numbers.
 
Highlander said:
agreed on most points, Leivo showed some good scoring touch with the Leafs in his brief stint, but not married to him or S. Carrick at this juncture.  Also Herzog is not being renewed for sure.

Sorry, missed that part.

Carry on.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
To avoid answering your interesting questions, here's one of my own. I think thn had the leafs ranked sixth in their Future Watch issue. Do you think we should be higher say in the top three?

Corey Pronman had them ranked 2nd before the season started. HockeysFuture's fall rankings had them 4th. Assuming that Nylander is still considered a prospect by them I'd be pretty shocked if a pool consisting of Nylander/Marner/Matthews wasn't at least top-2.

Pronman had them at 2, huh?  (BTW, does he have his own website or what?) 

Anyway, at or near the very top is what I think too ... for forwards.  As has been pointed out, the D and goalies drag them down a fair bit.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
B1: Hyman, Soshnikov, Brown

I'm at a point where these guys are basically NHLers. Zach Hyman turns 24 before the season starts. Soshnikov will turn 23 and has 3 years of professional hockey experience under his belt. Brown's 22 years old, and I'm pretty confident he would have been in the NHL this past season if the team played it under a different mandate.

B2: Kapanen, Lindberg, Timashov, Gauthier, Johnson, Leipsic, Bracco

These to me are the forward prospects with the best chance of being contributing NHLers (either in a middle-6 role, or being a pretty darn good 4C in the case of Gauthier). None of them are NHL ready, and with the probable exception of Bracco all will be with the Marlies next season. Leipsic is a name that I keep flip-flopping on. I don't really see a big NHL upside for him, but his AHL numbers are very impressive for his age. Obviously the guy I would feel most comfortable moving from this group.

B3: Leivo, C. Smith, S. Carrick

These are guys who were at one point B2's, but couldn't take the next jump. A cautionary tale that not everyone in the group above will work out. They're good AHLers who probably wouldn't look completely out of place in the NHL for a short period of time, but I don't see them lasting longer than that in the big leagues. I wouldn't even offer Sam Carrick a contract this summer.

C1: Dzierkals, Korostelev, Piccinich

Probably nothing here, but they're still young. Piccinich will need a contract this summer. With how tight we are with the contract limit, he's not really an instant sign for me. Or at least if he is then he's a trade option in a Mason Raymond deal.

C2: Everyone else

Nothing here.

I agree with this assessment. 

Hoping for some better dmen prospects.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Pronman had them at 2, huh?  (BTW, does he have his own website or what?) 

His stuff is all at ESPN, behind their paywall.

Screw paywalls.  God made the Internet free, and what God hath made let no man put asunder.  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.  There is more likelihood of putting a camel through a needle's eye than ESPN getting me to pay for content.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Pronman had them at 2, huh?  (BTW, does he have his own website or what?) 

His stuff is all at ESPN, behind their paywall.

Screw paywalls.  God made the Internet free, and what God hath made let no man put asunder.  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.  There is more likelihood of putting a camel through a needle's eye than ESPN getting me to pay for content.

I know of some free sites that became pay sites, and then, site visits dropped dramatically.  Advertisers also stopped paying to advertise there as well.  Stupid is as stupid does.
 
Meh. I've been getting things for free on the internet that I shouldn't have basically all my life. Throwing in a few bucks here and there to gain access to pretty material that's worth paying for isn't killing me.
 

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