Bettman

[Fanatic]

I think that Bettman deserves to be in the HHOF, but I do wish that the timing was different. Perhaps right after retiring someday.

I am cringing today thinking about how he must be feeling to know that he will again be mercilessly booed when he is announced. I have never understood this. He is a commissioner. He serves at the behest of the owners. He is obviously not the most personable guy and he comes across wrong sometimes, but he has served the owners well for a long time.

I would love to see Shanny announce him and ask the Leafs fans tonight to please be different than all the other dummies around the league and give the man a warm hand of applause. But that will not happen. He will again be booed and it will be cringe worthy to watch him try to graciously carry on. It has to affect him. It bothers me.

 

[Kin]

I don't think the booing affects him at all. I think he sees it as a sign of how effective he's been at serving the owner's interests that fans blame him for what the owners want. Now he seems to practically lean into it.

I agree the timing here is wonky but he was getting in anyway so meh.

 

[Fanatic]

I don't think the booing affects him at all. I think he sees it as a sign of how effective he's been at serving the owner's interests that fans blame him for what the owners want. Now he seems to practically lean into it.

I agree the timing here is wonky but he was getting in anyway so meh.

But wouldn't it be a lot classier of the Leafs fans to give him a hand of applause.... at least this once?

 

[Kin]

But wouldn't it be a lot classier of the Leafs fans to give him a hand of applause.... at least this once?

If it's dishonest? I don't think so. I think "class" as an adjective is largely meaningless in any sort of modern context regardless(or at least it seems to mean whatever the user wants it to mean) but why cheer the guy if you think he's been bad for the game? What are you applauding? That he's made a bunch of awful old billionaires more money?

 

[Fanatic]

If it's dishonest? I don't think so. I think "class" as an adjective is largely meaningless in any sort of modern context regardless(or at least it seems to mean whatever the user wants it to mean) but why cheer the guy if you think he's been bad for the game? What are you applauding? That he's made a bunch of awful old billionaires more money?

Okay, fair enough. I will withdraw the "classier" comment and go another way.

He has been the commissioner for 35 years. Somewhere along the way he was truly on the butt end of boos and jeers from fans who blamed him for all that is wrong with the game of hockey. Somehow it became the in thing to do to boo him.

But the game is great right now. It is stronger than ever and continuing to grow. The NHL cap has allowed more fans to keep their teams in place and be competitive. It was a long haul to get where they are today, but surely history can show that he has done his job at least adequately.

The HHOF has chosen him to be inducted. Nice honor. We can argue about whether he belongs there now just as we can for any other player, but every other player/owner/coach etc. gets cheered when the time comes for them to walk out and salute the fans. But Bettman will not get that. It is utterly ridiculous that people continue to boo. But ask any of them why they are booing and my guess is that the great majority could not really tell you.

 

[Bates]

If it's dishonest? I don't think so. I think "class" as an adjective is largely meaningless in any sort of modern context regardless(or at least it seems to mean whatever the user wants it to mean) but why cheer the guy if you think he's been bad for the game? What are you applauding? That he's made a bunch of awful old billionaires more money?

Okay, fair enough. I will withdraw the "classier" comment and go another way.

He has been the commissioner for 35 years. Somewhere along the way he was truly on the butt end of boos and jeers from fans who blamed him for all that is wrong with the game of hockey. Somehow it became the in thing to do to boo him.

But the game is great right now. It is stronger than ever and continuing to grow. The NHL cap has allowed more fans to keep their teams in place and be competitive. It was a long haul to get where they are today, but surely history can show that he has done his job at least adequately.

The HHOF has chosen him to be inducted. Nice honor. We can argue about whether he belongs there now just as we can for any other player, but every other player/owner/coach etc. gets cheered when the time comes for them to walk out and salute the fans. But Bettman will not get that. It is utterly ridiculous that people continue to boo. But ask any of them why they are booing and my guess is that the great majority could not really tell you.

Toronto fans have a really good player sitting in Europe that they have not been able to sign largely because of the Cap,  they actually might have a reason to boo Bettman right now.

 

[Fanatic]

Toronto fans have a really good player sitting in Europe that they have not been able to sign largely because of the Cap,  they actually might have a reason to boo Bettman right now.

 

[Bates]

Toronto fans have a really good player sitting in Europe that they have not been able to sign largely because of the Cap,  they actually might have a reason to boo Bettman right now.

You don't like answers??

 

[Kin]

But the game is great right now. It is stronger than ever and continuing to grow. The NHL cap has allowed more fans to keep their teams in place and be competitive. It was a long haul to get where they are today, but surely history can show that he has done his job at least adequately.

Well, that's the point of contention. I don't agree the game is great right now. I think the league's too big, the teams are too weak and the entire system is designed to reward failure to such an extent that it's rendered victory largely meaningless.

Despite the fact that my interest in the Leafs is what it is my interest in the "game" is nowhere near what it was. I tried watching Washington/Pittsburgh the other night and quickly switched it over to a mediocre basketball game. Things like the draft and the cap represent just about everything I dislike about the modern sports experience and no league represents the primacy of those things in terms of dictating the composition of teams more than the NHL. The League's most exciting players play where they do because the most incompetently run teams win lotteries or game a crappy system. That's a great sport? That's competition at it's finest?

The League's growth and business model is dependent on effectively extorting money from cities that could, and should, be spent on public services. Cities, regardless of their financial situation, are basically threatened with abandonment unless they cough up hundreds of millions of dollars. Schools, hospitals, fire stations...all are made effectively worse and occasionally have to be closed because of what Bettman does and has done for a quarter of a century. 

Like I said, I think fans give Bettman too much credit for the owners agenda but he still works in service of that agenda and it's awful. They might boo him for the wrong reasons but I cannot disagree in strong enough terms with the idea that the impact he's had on the "game" should be applauded.

 

[Bates]

How about this one, Bettman has been in charge of the League for 3 lockouts, with a possible 4th to come and was instrumental in achieving a Salary Cap which hurts the Leafs as much as any team. Why would anyone be surprised that Leaf fans might not be a fan of his?

 

[Fanatic]

How about this one, Bettman has been in charge of the League for 3 lockouts, with a possible 4th to come and was instrumental in achieving a Salary Cap which hurts the Leafs as much as any team. Why would anyone be surprised that Leaf fans might not be a fan of his?

Perhaps. But I feel that the booing is personal and that makes no sense to me. If people want to boo him because they want to boo a league that allowed lockouts in the past and has a salary cap which some teams find hard to fit within then who am I to argue?

 

[Fanatic]

Well, that's the point of contention. I don't agree the game is great right now. I think the league's too big, the teams are too weak and the entire system is designed to reward failure to such an extent that it's rendered victory largely meaningless.

Despite the fact that my interest in the Leafs is what it is my interest in the "game" is nowhere near what it was. I tried watching Washington/Pittsburgh the other night and quickly switched it over to a mediocre basketball game. Things like the draft and the cap represent just about everything I dislike about the modern sports experience and no league represents the primacy of those things in terms of dictating the composition of teams more than the NHL. The League's most exciting players play where they do because the most incompetently run teams win lotteries or game a crappy system. That's a great sport? That's competition at it's finest?

The League's growth and business model is dependent on effectively extorting money from cities that could, and should, be spent on public services. Cities, regardless of their financial situation, are basically threatened with abandonment unless they cough up hundreds of millions of dollars. Schools, hospitals, fire stations...all are made effectively worse and occasionally have to be closed because of what Bettman does and has done for a quarter of a century. 

Like I said, I think fans give Bettman too much credit for the owners agenda but he still works in service of that agenda and it's awful. They might boo him for the wrong reasons but I cannot disagree in strong enough terms with the idea that the impact he's had on the "game" should be applauded.

I appreciate and understand your take on this. But I disagree and believe that the Cap has given stability to a league that was hurting itself by having teams fold and/or pop up in new cities with little chance of competing for the playoffs, let alone a Cup. Ironically, this same system that you (and others) may despise is the one that not only is creating a cap crunch on Nylander, but also allowed the Leafs to draft Matthews, Marner and Nylander in the first place.

To me, the emphasis in the league now is not on who has the deepest pockets, but who is the best run organization. Any organization can have solid leadership and build a winner. What happened with the LVK in their first year is a great story, and I think also healthy for the NHL.

As for your lack of league wide interest I cannot really speak to it. I have been too busy to watch other games for a while now. Generally though the games seems to be faster and more skilled than before - I love that smaller players have a chance to play in this league now - and the games tend to get much better as we get closer to April.

Still though, if you chose to boo Bettman and told me that these were your reasons I would respect it 100% - boo all night long. But I suspect that the vast majority of people do not even know what they are booing for and perhaps that is also why it seems to be so personal towards him at times. I dislike that entirely and, like I have said, I will cringe when I see it tonight.

 

[bustaheims]

How about this one, Bettman has been in charge of the League for 3 lockouts, with a possible 4th to come and was instrumental in achieving a Salary Cap which hurts the Leafs as much as any team. Why would anyone be surprised that Leaf fans might not be a fan of his?

Maybe they understand that his role in the CBA negotiations is to represent the BoG and he's not imposing his will. If he didn't pursue the cap as diligently as he did, he'd would no longer be the commissioner. The cap is not his doing. He and Daly were simply the weapons that BoG wielded in their fight against the PA.

 

[Kin]

But I disagree and believe that the Cap has given stability to a league that was hurting itself by having teams fold and/or pop up in new cities with little chance of competing for the playoffs, let alone a Cup.

I am not so invested in the profitability of this league of billionaires that I'm happy that they decided that the dual answer to their problems was to cancel seasons and start begging for public money to subsidize this entertainment.

Ironically, this same system that you (and others) may despise is the one that not only is creating a cap crunch on Nylander, but also allowed the Leafs to draft Matthews, Marner and Nylander in the first place.

I'm pretty confident that with good management, any truly equitable system of player distribution would see the Leafs doing fine. The "system" didn't allow the Leafs to draft those guys, the Leafs had to be intentionally bad in order to draft those guys. For two years the Leafs sold an intentionally bad product, at very high prices, to loyal customers so the league would "allow" them to have some of the better young players in the league. That's a system you think Leafs fans should applaud? Next time you get mugged, be sure to thank the guy.

To me, the emphasis in the league now is not on who has the deepest pockets, but who is the best run organization.

As a Leafs fan, I feel pretty confident in saying that pre-cap it wasn't about who had the deepest pockets.

Regardless, I still think this is fundamentally untrue. Winning now is as much about luck as anything. What was a bigger factor in Pittsburgh winning the last two cups? The fact that they're so well run? Or the fact that they won a lottery for Sidney Crosby? Is what separates Washington from Columbus exceptional management skills or that when Washington won the #1 pick, Alex Ovechkin was available but when Columbus won it the best they could do was Rick Nash?

Mandating a salary range doesn't emphasize good management, just roughly even clubs increasingly subject to the luck of the draw.

As for your lack of league wide interest I cannot really speak to it. I have been too busy to watch other games for a while now. Generally though the games seems to be faster and more skilled than before - I love that smaller players have a chance to play in this league now - and the games tend to get much better as we get closer to April.

Fixing a lot of what was wrong with the league had nothing to do with the cap. In fact, a pretty fair case can be made that Bettman let the league suffer under the trap for almost a decade because he was so obsessed with obtaining profits for the owners via a cap.

 

[Bates]

How about this one, Bettman has been in charge of the League for 3 lockouts, with a possible 4th to come and was instrumental in achieving a Salary Cap which hurts the Leafs as much as any team. Why would anyone be surprised that Leaf fans might not be a fan of his?

Maybe they understand that his role in the CBA negotiations is to represent the BoG and he's not imposing his will. If he didn't pursue th4e cap as diligently as he did, he'd would no longer be the commissioner. The cap is not his doing. He and Daly were simply the weapons that BoG wielded in their fight against the PA.

Using that why exactly would he be Inducted if he just does what the owner's want?  He gets credit as he is driving the bus, he gets booed because he is driving the bus.

 

[Kin]

I'd also like to point out that when people talk about "deep pockets" determining things pre-cap what they really mean is some combination of:

A) A large and passionately devoted fan base

B) Owners who saw running teams less as a business and more as the oversight of civic institutions

Bettman definitely stamped those things out as big factors in wins and losses. Hooray! Cups for the Wirtz and Jacobs families! Just small town do-gooders finally catching a break.

 

[Frank E]

Schools, hospitals, fire stations...all are made effectively worse and occasionally have to be closed because of what Bettman does and has done for a quarter of a century. 

Yes, if it weren't for those sports teams, our government would have a lot of money to spend on hospitals, and fire stations, and schools.

I'm no fan of publicly funded stadiums, at all really, but come on, they'd waste that money somewhere else.  And it's really not that much money spent on these things, relative to revenues.

https://jalopnik.com/canada-needs-to-unload-hundreds-of-nearly-new-chrysler-1830343840

The inefficiencies of government bureaucracies is a worldwide issue, so suggesting that we'd have more hospitals instead of stadiums is a little bananas.

 

[bustaheims]

Using that why exactly would he be Inducted if he just does what the owner's want?  He gets credit as he is driving the bus, he gets booed because he is driving the bus.

Because, what he's done in his position as commissioner goes far beyond representing the BoG in CBA negotiations. He pushed for and largely directed the league's expansion through the 90s and early 2000s - which has largely been a success, he's played a significant role in helping to increase the league's revenue, etc. He doesn't just do what the owners want, but, the things he gets blamed for are when he's largely in the position, whereas the positive things he's done are a much more mixed bag.

 

[Kin]

I'm no fan of publicly funded stadiums, at all really, but come on, they'd waste that money somewhere else.  And it's really not that much money spent on these things, relative to revenues.

What revenues? The revenues the teams make? Because economist after economist has said that the supposed "revenues" generated for cities don't justify the money cities put into them, that basically any other civic investment yields better returns.

Other than that, if cities didn't hand out millions to billionaires for stadiums those millions could be better spent. That they always aren't isn't really a counterpoint there because both of those things are symptoms of the same fundamental problem.

 

[Frank E]

Using that why exactly would he be Inducted if he just does what the owner's want?  He gets credit as he is driving the bus, he gets booed because he is driving the bus.

Because, what he's done in his position as commissioner goes far beyond representing the BoG in CBA negotiations. He pushed for and largely directed the league's expansion through the 90s and early 2000s - which has largely been a success, he's played a significant role in helping to increase the league's revenue, etc. He doesn't just do what the owners want, but, the things he gets blamed for are when he's largely in the position, whereas the positive things he's done are a much more mixed bag.

One thing I think he does do well is muzzle the owners of the league.  You don't read stupid things said by NHL owners very often.  Other sports...