Canadian Olympic orientation camp roster announced

[Kin]

Leaving the guys behind that they did and taking Chris Kunitz?

I mean come on, that is pathetic, anyone who tries to justify it is deluding themselves.

It's not necessarily the choice I'd have made but you're talking about a guy who's #6 in scoring in the NHL right now and was #7 last year.

 

[bustaheims]

Cause all 4 of them are better and higher skilled goal scorers

But, Carter isn't necessarily going to be used in that kind of role. He has a much better all-around game that Seguin or Hall (his defence has improved since going to LA) and has a track record of success on the wing, unlike Thornton. Taking him over Giroux is questionable, but, if he's going to be used in more of a checking/defensive role, the size difference between the two make the reasoning for that choice a little more understandable.

 

[Kin]

Seems like we don't have the depth on defence like we once did.

I don't know what you mean by "once did" but Canada's B team defence would be:

Boyle-Seabrook
Letang-Girardi
Green-Garrison
Giordano-Phaneuf

Or something like that. To me, aside from maybe the Swedes, that would still make for the second best defense at the tournament.

 

[Bates]

Other than "The Goal" Crosby was rather average at last Olympics. 

As has been mentioned on Twitter, isn't that like taking Kevin Stevens because he's Lemieux's guy?

They're elite players for a reason, they don't need "a guy" - the guy needs them.

The idea that Crosby needs somebody who he is comfortable with is just insulting to Crosby. Pretty sure he did ok with strangers last time around.

 

[Kin]

The idea that Crosby needs somebody who he is comfortable with is just insulting to Crosby. Pretty sure he did ok with strangers last time around.

Didn't Crosby play a healthy amount of time last Olympics with Bergeron? Who he'd also played with at the WJC?

Anyways, I don't think the argument is that Crosby needs Kunitz, just that they have a chemistry that should translate well.

 

[L K]

Other than "The Goal" Crosby was rather average at last Olympics. 

As has been mentioned on Twitter, isn't that like taking Kevin Stevens because he's Lemieux's guy?

They're elite players for a reason, they don't need "a guy" - the guy needs them.

The idea that Crosby needs somebody who he is comfortable with is just insulting to Crosby. Pretty sure he did ok with strangers last time around.

His "average" was still 7 points in 7 games. He wasn't dominant is all. 

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Leaving the guys behind that they did and taking Chris Kunitz?

I mean come on, that is pathetic, anyone who tries to justify it is deluding themselves.

It's not necessarily the choice I'd have made but you're talking about a guy who's #6 in scoring in the NHL right now and was #7 last year.

I'd probably be top 10 riding shotgun with Sid.

That's a joke obviously, but Kunitz's numbers when not playing with Sid are atrocious and he's going to be tasked with playing against the best players in the world.

He does not bring value here, there are much more talented players who would perform just as well, if not significantly better given their higher talent level, if you put them on Crosby's wing.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Leaving the guys behind that they did and taking Chris Kunitz?

I mean come on, that is pathetic, anyone who tries to justify it is deluding themselves.

It's not necessarily the choice I'd have made but you're talking about a guy who's #6 in scoring in the NHL right now and was #7 last year.

I'd probably be top 10 riding shotgun with Sid.

That's a joke obviously, but Kunitz's numbers when not playing with Sid are atrocious and he's going to be tasked with playing against the best players in the world.

He does not bring value here, there are much more talented players who would perform just as well, if not significantly better given their higher talent level, if you put them on Crosby's wing.

10-11 was when Crosby first started playing almost solely with Kunitz.  However, 10-11 and 11-12 were injury plagued seasons for Crosby so Kunitz didn't really get to play much overall with Crosby.

In 12-13 and so far this season, however, they've played almost all of their time together on the ice.

Prior to 12-13, Kunitz was a .66 PPG player, or about 54 points in 82 games.

In the past two seasons since Crosby has been healthy and Kunitz has played almost only with him, Kunitz is a 1.08 PPG player, or 88 points in 82 games.

 

[Jalili]

For fun...

Team Canada 2

Couture ? Thornton ? Neal
Lucic ? Staal ? Giroux
Hall ? M. Richards ? St. Louis
Ladd ? J. Staal ? Seguin
Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins

Giordano ? Seabrook
Phaneuf ? Boyle
Staal ? Hamonic
Methot, Letang

Crawford, Fleury, Harding

Team Canada 3

Skinner ? Spezza ? Little
MacArthur ? Turris ? Simmonds
Schwartz ? Johansen ? Marchand
Perron ? O?Reilly ? R. Smith
Kane, Ribeiro

Campbell ? Boychuk
Garrison ? Bieksa
Beauchemin ? Green
Coburn, Girardi

Bernier, Reimer, Holtby

 

[Kin]

He does not bring value here, there are much more talented players who would perform just as well, if not significantly better given their higher talent level, if you put them on Crosby's wing.

I don't think that follows, given what we saw in '10. The idea that you can just throw a talented player on Crosby's line and they start scoring in buckets didn't play out then and, as I recall, it really did look like guys had trouble adjusting to Crosby's particular brand of creativity.

Kunitz was a good player and effective goal scorer before playing with Crosby. Considering the fact that he probably will be playing with Crosby his being one of the most effective scorers in the league the last few years is a pretty solid case for his inclusion.

 

[Jalili]

The idea that you can just throw a talented player on Crosby's line and they start scoring in buckets didn't play out then and, as I recall, it really did look like guys had trouble adjusting to Crosby's particular brand of creativity.

You hit the nail on the head.

Crosby had a decent enough tournament in '10 but his line never clicked as Hockey Canada expected it would. The Toews, Getzlaf lines by comparison were far better, and the Toews line was basically what saved Canada.

 

[L K]

In the end, the team isn't designed to be the best 20 dressed players and 4-5 scratched players.    It's supposed to be a combination of players the coach/GM feels will win.  As much as Kunitz on his own shouldn't be on the team, if he and Crosby click right off the bat and it leads to a Gold medal, it was the right decision.  If however Kunitz is overmatched, then we can question it. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

7 games is FAR too few a sample size to say Crosby won't work with just any skilled winger.  I'm sure Crosby has had average 7 game stretches every season.  He's had a number of different wingers in his career, even just going by his time in Pittsburgh, and has always put up big numbers.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Well we can't play GM anymore, so let's put our coaching hats on:

Kunitz-Crosby-Stamkos
Benn-Getzlaf-Perry
Sharp-Toews-Nash
Duchene-Tavares-Carter
Marleau-Bergeron

Looks pretty good. That top line is a lock if Stamkos is healthy. Benn's a big guy who would give Canada a huge second line. That 3rd line could be a shut-down unit that can score. The 4th line is the one I'm not nuts about, just because of the RW spot. If St. Louis was on the team ahead of Carter that would be one crazy fast 4th line. Bergeron plays in the 13th forward spot and Marleau watches from the pressbox.

Keith-Doughty
Vlasic-Weber
Bouwmeester-Pietrangelo
Hamhuis-Subban

The defence is pretty obvious. I'd like to have Subban play the left side with Weber but he'll likely have to settle for the 7th spot.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The idea that you can just throw a talented player on Crosby's line and they start scoring in buckets didn't play out then and, as I recall, it really did look like guys had trouble adjusting to Crosby's particular brand of creativity.

You hit the nail on the head.

Crosby had a decent enough tournament in '10 but his line never clicked as Hockey Canada expected it would. The Toews, Getzlaf lines by comparison were far better, and the Toews line was basically what saved Canada.

But if you're going to value chemistry so highly - why isn't St. Louis/Stamkos going?

 

[Kin]

In the end, the team isn't designed to be the best 20 dressed players and 4-5 scratched players.    It's supposed to be a combination of players the coach/GM feels will win.  As much as Kunitz on his own shouldn't be on the team, if he and Crosby click right off the bat and it leads to a Gold medal, it was the right decision.  If however Kunitz is overmatched, then we can question it.

Well, and also it's a very low-risk proposition. There are 14 forwards. If Kunitz-Crosby works, great. If it doesn't, Kunitz is in the press box. I have no problem with using that 14th forward spot on this sort of dice roll.

 

[Kin]

Well we can't play GM anymore, so let's put our coaching hats on:

Kunitz-Crosby-Stamkos
Benn-Getzlaf-Perry
Sharp-Toews-Nash
Duchene-Tavares-Carter
Marleau-Bergeron

I think that's roughly what I'd like to see. I wonder about Tavares being used as a centre on that 4th line and think that a Duchene-Bergeron-Tavares line might be something I'd prefer to see getting a regular shift. Marleau, Carter and Kunitz should, in my opinion, be the guys battling for that 13th spot.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Randy Numbers ‏@randynumbers 20m
Martin St. Louis has registered the most points in the NHL (294) since the 2010 Winter Olympics.

 

[Jalili]

But if you're going to value chemistry so highly - why isn't St. Louis/Stamkos going?

Personally I wouldn't have taken Kunitz at all, but my guess is that it's because Crosby is the team's #1 center and as Nik said, he's not a guy who seems to develop chemistry well with just anyone. His only 3 assists in 2010 came in one game against Norway. So they gave him the guy he works really well with.

Whereas with Stamkos, I guess you could throw him pretty much anywhere in the lineup.

 

[Kin]

But if you're going to value chemistry so highly - why isn't St. Louis/Stamkos going?

Personally I wouldn't have taken Kunitz at all, but my guess is that it's because Crosby is the team's #1 center and as Nik said, he's not a guy who seems to develop chemistry well with just anyone. His only 3 assists in 2010 came in one game against Norway. So they gave him the guy he works really well with.

Whereas with Stamkos, I guess you could throw him pretty much anywhere in the lineup.

Not to mention that Stamkos' status right now is up in the air a little bit so you're not going to name someone to play with him in the hope that he's ready and can build a line around him.

But A) as you point out I think Crosby is a particular case here and B) the "If you value X in one situation it has to decide every single decision you make" is a pretty obvious fallacy.