Captain Phaneuf

[dappleganger]

I feel stupid bringing up the team GA/G. My point was that as a team we're playing well defensively so let's not harp on Phaneuf because it ain't that bad.

I suppose the difference is that I don't see the continuing discussion/evaluation of any player, particularly not an important one, as tantamount to "harping" on anything even if the opinion isn't all roses and sunshine and the team is doing well. Any team, good or bad, is a collection of moving parts that aren't all going to be as good as you'd like.

scrutiny is a good thing. It feeds analysis.

Scrutiny is fine but what happens with Phaneuf is more along the lines of carping.

 

[Kin]

Scrutiny is fine but what happens with Phaneuf is more along the lines of carping.

I don't think that's true. I think that if you compared the scrutiny he gets to say, guys like McCabe or Kaberle, it's no more harsh and I think both Kabs and McCabe at their best were better players than Phaneuf has shown himself to be on the Leafs.

 

[dappleganger]

Scrutiny is fine but what happens with Phaneuf is more along the lines of carping.

I don't think that's true. I think that if you compared the scrutiny he gets to say, guys like McCabe or Kaberle, it's no more harsh and I think both Kabs and McCabe at their best were better players than Phaneuf has shown himself to be on the Leafs.

Just because two former Leafs were scrutinized doesn't mean it is accurate. If you want to talk about former Leafs, Larry Murphy was booed out of town and all he did was go to Detroit and win back-to-back cups and then enter the hall of fame. Are you suggesting Leaf fans are ignorant about NHL defencemen?

Toronto needs it's whipping boy!

 

[Kin]

Just because two former Leafs were scrutinized doesn't mean it is accurate.

Doesn't mean what is accurate? I didn't say Leafs fans are always right, I said that the level of criticism that Phaneuf is subject to isn't disproportionate to guys like Kaberle or McCabe, despite their being better players.

If you want to talk about former Leafs, Larry Murphy was booed out of town and all he did was go to Detroit and win back-to-back cups and then enter the hall of fame. Are you suggesting Leaf fans are ignorant about NHL defencemen?

You've lost me. Aren't you suggesting that by trying to establish an incongruity between the Leafs fans' harsh criticism of Murphy and his later accomplishments?

I mean, it seems to me you're now making my point for me. Larry Murphy, another guy who's at least on Phaneuf's level, was subject to way harsher criticism than Phaneuf. To the extent that he got booed every time he touched the puck. All Phaneuf is getting is criticism from fans who don't think he's very good defensively and jokes about it from people like me.

(I also think that's kind of a misrepresentation of the Murphy situation. Sure the booing didn't help but I don't think it's the reason he got dealt. The Leafs were a bottom feeding team that dealt away basically everyone on the team over 30, including Gilmour, Ellett and Muller.If the Leafs were going to trade Murphy because he was being booed they wouldn't have waited almost 70 games.)

Toronto needs it's whipping boy!

Yeah, again, that just doesn't jibe with what I'm seeing. Kessel doesn't get his share of criticism? Grabo doesn't? Kulemin and Bozak are immune? Phaneuf is subject to the exact same analysis/criticism that any other Leaf is. It's loud, sure, but that's just part of being on the Maple Leafs.

 

[dappleganger]

Sorry I lost you Nik.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

 

[Zee]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

 

[rdowdall]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

It may be that he isn't very good at determining when to do something.  People used to say that Al Iafrate had just as much talent as Ray Bourque.  The difference between the two of them was that Bourque new you shouldn't try an end to end rush in a game in which you were winning 2-0, where as Al didn't.  Phanuef probably just can't read plays well, and that's probably not a good thing.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

I did not see the game last night, only the highlights, but I did not see him on the ice for any of the goals against, and getting the OT winner is what the captain needs to bring to the table. 

I know I will rag on the d-men and the goaltending just because I played those positions and know what it takes, and the pressure involved, so I may appear to be critical at times, but I do try to be fair as well.  When Phaneuf plays a simple game does not do more than what he should, he plays great, and from what I saw, thought he played great last night.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

Bingo!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

Bingo!

So he looks good some games and makes errors some other times? Nothing out of the ordinary, and as I've argued many times, it's nowhere near as often or as bad as it is made out to be.  I'm guessing if you watch other top D in the league the same amount, and with the same critical eye, as you watch Phaneuf that you will see them making comparable numbers of mistakes (some less, some more).  I don't want to compare him to anyone because it's futile, I don't think any one of us watches other d-men play full games enough to comment on their play, at least I don't feel comfortable enough doing so.

I won't continue to argue this for a little bit though, I've said enough on the subject and nobody's opinions seem to be changing, and that's okay.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

Bingo!

So he looks good some games and makes errors some other times? Nothing out of the ordinary, and as I've argued many times, it's nowhere near as often or as bad as it is made out to be.  I'm guessing if you watch other top D in the league the same amount, and with the same critical eye, as you watch Phaneuf that you will see them making comparable numbers of mistakes (some less, some more).  I don't want to compare him to anyone because it's futile, I don't think any one of us watches other d-men play full games enough to comment on their play, at least I don't feel comfortable enough doing so.

I won't continue to argue this for a little bit though, I've said enough on the subject and nobody's opinions seem to be changing, and that's okay.

Of course I'm going to be more critical of my own team's players.

If you'd like, give me a list of comparable players to Phaneuf.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

Bingo!

So he looks good some games and makes errors some other times? Nothing out of the ordinary, and as I've argued many times, it's nowhere near as often or as bad as it is made out to be.  I'm guessing if you watch other top D in the league the same amount, and with the same critical eye, as you watch Phaneuf that you will see them making comparable numbers of mistakes (some less, some more).  I don't want to compare him to anyone because it's futile, I don't think any one of us watches other d-men play full games enough to comment on their play, at least I don't feel comfortable enough doing so.

I won't continue to argue this for a little bit though, I've said enough on the subject and nobody's opinions seem to be changing, and that's okay.

Of course I'm going to be more critical of my own team's players.

If you'd like, give me a list of comparable players to Phaneuf.

I didn't mean critical as in negative, I meant critical as in watching players very closely with a critical eye - to critique/analyse/etc - moreso than we're able to do with other players on other teams.

I said I don't want to, but if you want cap hit comparables they're right here: http://www.capgeek.com/comparables/?player=442

 

[Zee]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

Bingo!

So he looks good some games and makes errors some other times? Nothing out of the ordinary, and as I've argued many times, it's nowhere near as often or as bad as it is made out to be.  I'm guessing if you watch other top D in the league the same amount, and with the same critical eye, as you watch Phaneuf that you will see them making comparable numbers of mistakes (some less, some more).  I don't want to compare him to anyone because it's futile, I don't think any one of us watches other d-men play full games enough to comment on their play, at least I don't feel comfortable enough doing so.

I won't continue to argue this for a little bit though, I've said enough on the subject and nobody's opinions seem to be changing, and that's okay.

Of course I'm going to be more critical of my own team's players.

If you'd like, give me a list of comparable players to Phaneuf.

I didn't mean critical as in negative, I meant critical as in watching players very closely with a critical eye - to critique/analyse/etc - moreso than we're able to do with other players on other teams.

I said I don't want to, but if you want cap hit comparables they're right here: http://www.capgeek.com/comparables/?player=442

Wow, Tyler Myers is raking in almost $40million over the life of his contract.  Life's good.

 

[Kin]

I must admit, Phaneuf played a much better game lastnight. He picked his spots and didn't play outside himself.

Consistency is the key.  He'll have games where he looks good, and others where you cringe from his cement head decisions.  He needs to be more consistent.

I think something needs to be said though about the difference between "mistakes" and weaknesses. Just about every defenseman, Nik Lidstrom excluded maybe, makes mistakes. They pass the puck somewhere they shouldn't or join a rush at a bad time or whatever. McCabe putting the puck in the Leafs net the one time, that was a mistake.

A weakness is something else. That's being too slow to handle quicker forwards consistently or too small to handle bigger ones. It's having bad instincts about when to go for a big hit or how to read a developing odd-man rush.

So for me anyway, it's not so much about saying "Dion Phaneuf did X on that play, so he's dumb" but rather "Dion Phaneuf frequently does X, which is indicative of him not being very good at Y".

 

[Leaflifer]

McCabe putting the puck in the Leafs net the one time, that was a mistake.

I agree with the gist of your post. The quote above almost looks as if McCabe made only one mistake. That goal he caused was something every involved D man does in their career. I'll wager Lidstrom had a few of those too.

Phaneuf makes some mistakes. McCabe, on the other hand, had a serious weakness IMO and that was his play under pressure. He was consistent with that.

 

[dappleganger]

I wonder if Detroit fans still talk about this one:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-KeGeVsqgw[/youtube]

 

[Kin]

McCabe, on the other hand, had a serious weakness IMO and that was his play under pressure. He was consistent with that.

I think that's some fairly selective memory at work. McCabe played pretty well under pressure as the team's #1 defenseman when they were making the playoffs every year.

 

[Leaflifer]

McCabe, on the other hand, had a serious weakness IMO and that was his play under pressure. He was consistent with that.

I think that's some fairly selective memory at work. McCabe played pretty well under pressure as the team's #1 defenseman when they were making the playoffs every year.

I've been flamed pretty hard before for making similar statements about McCabe...I don't want to go down that road again.

I'm not a big fan as Dion as the Leaf captain, but he may be the best choice for now. I am hoping he is a big game type of player and we'll see a guy who can dominate stretches of games IF the Leafs get into the play-offs.

He has some tools.

 

[Hampreacher]

Part of the reason that leafs cannot sign top flight free agents are their over critical fans. Given what and who Phaneuf plays against and the huge ice time he logs, that all plays into his performance and his plus minus. Did not Don Cherry make comments about this. Fans need to stop throwing their players under the bus. When free agents look at offers this does effect their destination. I have read comment after comment of players attributing Phaneuf's leadership and help. When Kadri was taking some conditioning training this past summer was notPhaneuf there to encourage Him. Not every player is going to be a Bobby Orr or a Scott Stevens nor should we expect them to be. Fans drove Macabe and Murphy away and who knows which free agents the fans critical spirit scared off.