Coach Mike Babcock

[Zee]

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

Great, so Edmonton will finally make the playoffs and still get the number one overall.

 

[Deebo]

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

Great, so Edmonton will finally make the playoffs and still get the number one overall.

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

No, not an equal shot.

The first 3 picks will be determined by lottery, that is the change for next year.

 

[L K]

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

Great, so Edmonton will finally make the playoffs and still get the number one overall.

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

No, not an equal shot.

The first 3 picks will be determined by lottery, that is the change for next year.

The draft odds stay the same as this year in terms of ball representation.

20%, 13.5%, 11.5%, 9.5%, 8.5%, 7.5%, 6.5%, 6.0%, 5.0%, 3.5%, 3.0%, 2.5%, 2.0%, 1.0%

The first ball selected gets the 1st overall pick.  Then the next ball gets 2nd and the 3rd ball selected gets 3rd overall. 4-14th remain based off remaining draft order.  So the worst team in the league can drop all the way to 4th.

If the 1st and 2nd overall picks go to the 29th and 30th ranked teams, the 14th place team would still only have a 1/66.5 chance of 3rd overall (1.5%).

 

[Zee]

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

Great, so Edmonton will finally make the playoffs and still get the number one overall.

Believe me tank is not in the vocabulary of anyone in this new Leaf management. Shanahan and Dubas are assembling a managment team that will not tolerate non effort. They are either going to play the systems introduced by Babcock or they will be playing elsewhere. Full effort is not only going to be expected but demanded.
I never want to see the Leafs play like they did this past year, aimless without direction and  worst of all non effort.
So lets put Tank Nation away.  I think we are going to see a lot of players traded for picks this year with perhaps another 1 or 2 first rounders and certainly a couple of 2nd rounders added to what we already have.

Aren't they changing the draft lottery so all non playoff teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick now? That should take care of future Buffalo teams that trade away any player who happens to be playing well.

No, not an equal shot.

The first 3 picks will be determined by lottery, that is the change for next year.

Ah well, still better than nothing.  At least you don't have to totally tank to have a shot at #1.

 

[rdowdall]

<snip>

I didn't really read your response.  The reason is that I felt bad about my last post.  I made accusations toward you that were unwarranted.  It's been bugging me all weekend and I was unsure on how I was going to approach it.

I jumped all over your analogy and then when you responded, I said that you said things that you didn't say.  For that I am sorry.  That was unfair of me to do.

 

[Courtnall]

So is phaneuf now going to stay with Babcock as coach? Detroit almost had him at the deadline and I imagine this changes things.

 

[skrackle]

Like Bullfrog said, there will be differences between this group and the last but the difference won't be that the last group was ok with players not trying.

Yeah, I think there will be no question about the effort level of any player that makes the team from this point on. I expect that the 'woe is me' atmosphere that seemed to permeate the team from January onward will disappear quickly.

It actually seems like you disagree with me. Look, Babcock isn't some pyschological genius. There are guys who half-butted it in Detroit. There were nights over the years where the Leafs played Detroit and Detroit didn't look great. In Toronto, Babcock will have games where it's the second night of a back to back and it's February and the Team is 20 points out of a playoff spot and they'll probably look like they're dragging out there.

I still don't buy that what happened in the second half of last year mainly represented an egregious failure of effort on the part of the players. To me it was an entire team collapsing, acknowledging defeat and moving on. I'm not offended by the reactions of certain players the way some seem to be. I don't care that the players didn't seem to display the utmost in professionalism when asked to to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Nonis-Carlyle Titanic. What bothered me is that the team got to be in that position in the first place through a series of bad decisions.

Did personnel play a role? Sure, and weeding out some guys might be needed but if they trade Phaneuf or Kessel on my behalf it better not be because they "didn't try" or whatever. It should be because it fits into their long term goals of building a team good enough that they won't be faced with what they were last season, under talented, poorly coached and with no real options for improvement.

I apologize for poor use of the quote function. That's what I get for posting at beer o'clock. It won't happen again. Actually, it probably will.

The entire Leafs organization needs to take blame for last season and the seasons leading up to it. The roster has been badly put together. I think Shanahan put it aptly when he spoke of the roster having talent but the mix being wrong. There was never any hope of Nonis succeeding with whatever his long term plan was.

That's not a total absolution of the players responsibility. Yes, they saw that they couldn't win with their roster and how they were asked to play. But, I also saw some quit in them and I think that's what Babcock will be able to change first. I don't see Babcock as some shining knight, but I do expect that there will be a noticeable difference in the team preparation, attitude and structure of play. There just won't be a lot of wins to show for it in the early days.

It also remains to be seen which of the current Leafs will be part of that. It won't be a road without bumps. I think that's where the pain Babcock speaks of comes in. Not every player will buy in, not every drafted prospect will pan out.

At least it appears that a different approach, as far as what the Leafs have tried to do, is finally being given a real chance.

 

[Kin]

<snip>

I didn't really read your response.  The reason is that I felt bad about my last post.  I made accusations toward you that were unwarranted.  It's been bugging me all weekend and I was unsure on how I was going to approach it.

I jumped all over your analogy and then when you responded, I said that you said things that you didn't say.  For that I am sorry.  That was unfair of me to do.

Don't worry about it. It's all good.

 

[Highlander]

The problem with Nonis is it now seems like he had no long term plan, now that leadership and direction has arrived. Why has it taken do long?

 

[Kin]

The entire Leafs organization needs to take blame for last season and the seasons leading up to it. The roster has been badly put together. I think Shanahan put it aptly when he spoke of the roster having talent but the mix being wrong. There was never any hope of Nonis succeeding with whatever his long term plan was.

That's not a total absolution of the players responsibility. Yes, they saw that they couldn't win with their roster and how they were asked to play. But, I also saw some quit in them and I think that's what Babcock will be able to change first. I don't see Babcock as some shining knight, but I do expect that there will be a noticeable difference in the team preparation, attitude and structure of play. There just won't be a lot of wins to show for it in the early days.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree here but the "quit" you say you saw I think is just something we're responding to differently. If Babcock and Shanahan do their jobs right, the reason we won't see the same thing is because those players won't be in similar positions. It's not about fundamentally changing player attitudes, it's about putting players into better situations.

There'll be new, bad situations though. Ones where we won't know how players react until we see them in it. How will Rielly or Gardiner react in March when the season's over and they have a Tuesday night game against Columbus? Babcock won't control that.

 

[Frank E]

The entire Leafs organization needs to take blame for last season and the seasons leading up to it. The roster has been badly put together. I think Shanahan put it aptly when he spoke of the roster having talent but the mix being wrong. There was never any hope of Nonis succeeding with whatever his long term plan was.

That's not a total absolution of the players responsibility. Yes, they saw that they couldn't win with their roster and how they were asked to play. But, I also saw some quit in them and I think that's what Babcock will be able to change first. I don't see Babcock as some shining knight, but I do expect that there will be a noticeable difference in the team preparation, attitude and structure of play. There just won't be a lot of wins to show for it in the early days.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree here but the "quit" you say you saw I think is just something we're responding to differently. If Babcock and Shanahan do their jobs right, the reason we won't see the same thing is because those players won't be in similar positions. It's not about fundamentally changing player attitudes, it's about putting players into better situations.

There'll be new, bad situations though. Ones where we won't know how players react until we see them in it. How will Rielly or Gardiner react in March when the season's over and they have a Tuesday night game against Columbus? Babcock won't control that.

What do you mean by putting players in better positions?

 

[Kin]

What do you mean by putting players in better positions?

Not literally. I mean, for instance, that if Babcock does his job and Shanahan does his that we won't see a team that had been put together with the intention that they were a playoff contender be horribly exposed as not having either the talent or the game plan to get there. We won't see a nearly capped out team realize that a massive tear down is needed for anything of substance to be achieved. We won't see a group of guys who probably thought of themselves of being the core group of a halfway decent team be called a bunch of no-hope losers every other day and get jerseys thrown at them.

What other people want to cast as a moral failing in the second half of last year on their part I really do see as a sort of natural deflation that would happen to just about anyone if a goal they'd been working years towards was being exposed as a mirage.

 

[Frank E]

What do you mean by putting players in better positions?

Not literally. I mean, for instance, that if Babcock does his job and Shanahan does his that we won't see a team that had been put together with the intention that they were a playoff contender be horribly exposed as not having either the talent or the game plan to get there. We won't see a nearly capped out team realize that a massive tear down is needed for anything of substance to be achieved. We won't see a group of guys who probably thought of themselves of being the core group of a halfway decent team be called a bunch of no-hope losers every other day and get jerseys thrown at them.

What other people want to cast as a moral failing in the second half of last year on their part I really do see as a sort of natural deflation that would happen to just about anyone if a goal they'd been working years towards was being exposed as a mirage.

I hope you're right, but the context was there after the trade deadline...it was a pretty clear "we're rebuilding" message coming out of management at that point, and they went 5-14.

I think though that Babcock and his forever contract will add some legitimacy to his position that Horachek didn't have.  Maybe he's better able to hold players accountable for a lousy outing on Tuesday night against the Jackets, and maybe minimize the occurrences of those types of efforts.  At least, I hope so. 

 

[Kin]

I hope you're right, but the context was there after the trade deadline...it was a pretty clear "we're rebuilding" message coming out of management at that point, and they went 5-14.

But that's my point. The core guys on this team aren't stupid. They knew what "we're rebuilding" means. They knew that if they were going to have any NHL success as a team it would come somewhere else. Expecting them to give it their all with any real motivation once they know that is to pretend that they're going to have a personal vested interest in the well-being of the franchise regardless of whether or not they're a part of it. I don't think that's particularly realistic hope.

 

[Highlander]

one of the things I love about this site, is sometimes we are critical of each other and sometimes deserved. When SI made his apology earlier I give him kudo's for that. So in the meantime lets keep acting like lumberjacks, taking full swings.
At least we have something to look forward to now. Let hope the suits don't get in the way.

 

[AvroArrow]

So is phaneuf now going to stay with Babcock as coach? Detroit almost had him at the deadline and I imagine this changes things.

I doubt it, personally.

Apparently Babcock was at odds with his GM about what players to get/move, which is supposedly part of the reason we wanted to move on.  If true, it's very possible he wanted nothing to do with Phaneuf.

 

[Kin]

So is phaneuf now going to stay with Babcock as coach? Detroit almost had him at the deadline and I imagine this changes things.

I doubt it, personally.

Apparently Babcock was at odds with his GM about what players to get/move, which is supposedly part of the reason we wanted to move on.  If true, it's very possible he wanted nothing to do with Phaneuf.

Along those lines it's very different to want Phaneuf as a complimentary piece to an aging team looking to make a deep playoff run than it is to want him as a significant piece of a rebuilding club. Even if Babcock were high on Phaneuf the situation is different enough that it's a whole new question.

 

[Leaflifer]

I am going to guess that one big difference will be that Babcock will coach this team in a way that puts emphasis on development, whereas Carlyle coached in a "win now" style, We may see more of what Horachek was doing with the team as opposed to letting them cherry pick.

 

[Highlander]

I feel for Horachuk, I really do, what a disaster the guy inherited.  He tried to implement a system to unbelievers and didnt have the talent, time or players with enough chemisty to impliment it.  But great for the tank!