Colton Orr two year extension?

[Strangelove]

Orr should not be playing hockey anymore at any level.  If he wasn't necessary against a team like Boston why is he on the team?

Reminds me of Domi's last contract.

 

[Kin]

One of the biggest Leafs critics, Glenn Healy, mention more than once from his position between the benches how things "quiet down out there when Orr is on the ice". 

Healy is also a pretty old-school hockey guy who in general believes that enforcers have that effect. And to whatever extent Healy is a Leafs' critic it doesn't extend to the point that he'd have that belief in general and then be like "Well, not for the Leafs though,". Honestly, I don't think "Glenn Healy believes it" is going to do much to sway people.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He doesn't intimidate anyone.  He only fights other plugs who can only fight.  He's too slow to keep up with 99% of the players in the league.  Has no hands, has no offensive contribution, has no discernible defensive contribution.

But he works hard.  Lock him up!

I wouldn't so much call him slow as I would say 'not quick'.  There is a difference.  He can move pretty well as he gets in on the forecheck.  What Orr lacks is directional movement and being able to move quickly in short spaces.

I also think you should ask Rene Bourque whether Colton Orr is intimidating or not. 

Is turning around and cold clocking a guy intimidating?  What did it achieve?  The Leafs played worse against Montreal the rest of the season, so it didn't seem to help the team.

 

[Champ Kind]

He doesn't intimidate anyone.  He only fights other plugs who can only fight.  He's too slow to keep up with 99% of the players in the league.  Has no hands, has no offensive contribution, has no discernible defensive contribution.

But he works hard.  Lock him up!

I wouldn't so much call him slow as I would say 'not quick'.  There is a difference.  He can move pretty well as he gets in on the forecheck.  What Orr lacks is directional movement and being able to move quickly in short spaces.

I also think you should ask Rene Bourque whether Colton Orr is intimidating or not. 

Is turning around and cold clocking a guy intimidating?  What did it achieve?  The Leafs played worse against Montreal the rest of the season, so it didn't seem to help the team.

I think you made two very good points with the rhetorical questions.  I do think, however, that Bourque wanted no part of Orr after he got up.  The last point (highlighted), however, is a big inference on your part.  I could just as easily suggest this was Grabovski's fault.  To me, the event(s) we're talking about are irrlevant to the way the Leafs played after that point.

 

[bustaheims]

And quite frankly if his presence was so important why were the Leafs able to hang with a physical Boston team with Orr parked on the bench.  His intimidation factor is severely overrated.

This. If intimidation has any influence on the game, it's not from having a guy who will drop the gloves out there, it's from having guys that get in on the forecheck quickly, and hit hard and frequently while they're there. The "fear factor" comes from worrying about being pasted into the boards while you're trying to make a play. Orr isn't particularly effective on that front. And, having him dressed doesn't stop guys from taking liberties with other Leafs. Firstly, Orr is rarely on the ice, so the odds of him being out there when a guy like Marchand feels he has an opportunity to take advantage of are slim. Secondly, guys like Marchand aren't going to fight their own battles any way. They're going to get Chara or Thornton or Lucic to do it. Meanwhile, guys like Lucic have no qualms about taking on whoever may feel the need to drop the gloves with them if they make a similar play. There's no "intimidation factor" from Orr.

 

[caver]

I don't agree. Intimidation is a factor with all tough guys, including Colton Orr. The commonly held belief about the downfall of Mike Komisarek's game was that he never got over his beatdown from Milan Lucic. It played on his mind and hurt his confidence.
Orr also had a memorable fight with Lucic a couple of years back. On the video replay you can see the moment Lucic realizes Orr is too tough for him and bails on the fight. That change in mindset affects the players entire game. 

 

[mr grieves]

And quite frankly if his presence was so important why were the Leafs able to hang with a physical Boston team with Orr parked on the bench.  His intimidation factor is severely overrated.

This. If intimidation has any influence on the game, it's not from having a guy who will drop the gloves out there, it's from having guys that get in on the forecheck quickly, and hit hard and frequently while they're there. The "fear factor" comes from worrying about being pasted into the boards while you're trying to make a play. Orr isn't particularly effective on that front. And, having him dressed doesn't stop guys from taking liberties with other Leafs. Firstly, Orr is rarely on the ice, so the odds of him being out there when a guy like Marchand feels he has an opportunity to take advantage of are slim. Secondly, guys like Marchand aren't going to fight their own battles any way. They're going to get Chara or Thornton or Lucic to do it. Meanwhile, guys like Lucic have no qualms about taking on whoever may feel the need to drop the gloves with them if they make a similar play. There's no "intimidation factor" from Orr.

This. The first part especially, which is the argument against one-dimensional enforcers in a nutshell. The intimidation that wins games, it seems to me, comes from a fast and persistent forecheck that wears down defenders and causes turnovers. And Orr just doesn't do that very well.

 

[Kin]

The intimidation that wins games, it seems to me, comes from a fast and persistent forecheck that wears down defenders and causes turnovers.

Or, at the very least, through scrums/fights that occur legitimately and naturally which really can only happen when the guys who fight are legitimate hockey players. The fear, for instance, that a Milan Lucic or Wendel Clark or someone like that might punch you in the face might make someone give him some space. A guy like Orr, on the other hand, nobody pays much attention to regardless.

 

[mr grieves]

The intimidation that wins games, it seems to me, comes from a fast and persistent forecheck that wears down defenders and causes turnovers.

Or, at the very least, through scrums/fights that occur legitimately and naturally which really can only happen when the guys who fight are legitimate hockey players. The fear, for instance, that a Milan Lucic or Wendel Clark or someone like that might punch you in the face might make someone give him some space. A guy like Orr, on the other hand, nobody pays much attention to regardless.

Sure. And, in all cases, skating well in directions other than a straight line is a pretty basic requirement for all this.

 

[Champ Kind]

The intimidation that wins games, it seems to me, comes from a fast and persistent forecheck that wears down defenders and causes turnovers.

Or, at the very least, through scrums/fights that occur legitimately and naturally which really can only happen when the guys who fight are legitimate hockey players. The fear, for instance, that a Milan Lucic or Wendel Clark or someone like that might punch you in the face might make someone give him some space. A guy like Orr, on the other hand, nobody pays much attention to regardless.

This is something I think mnost, if not all, can agree with.  Like Busta says, a menacing forecheck or a Scott Stevens open-ice hit (well, when those were legal) is likely way more intimidating / fear-inducing that having John Scott (or whomever) suddenly lumber over and begin pumelling away. 

Like Nik notes, the spontaneous support in a scrum or fight is what really shows team-toughness.  Wendel stepping up to McSorley is one of the best examples.  The trouble is, it's rare to find the someone like Clark or Lucic who can truly play and fight.  Hence the British Bulldong's man-crush for Chris Stewart (a well-deserved one, I might add). Maybe Clowe offers some of this, I don't know.  But in the absence of finding that complete player, teams turn to guys like Orr, almost by default.

I'd much rather have a tough team that lays the body hard and consistently for 60 minutes and who, in a pinch, can drop the gloves in a fit of anger.  Absent that, some teams load up on toughness in one or two guys, to mixed effect.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He doesn't intimidate anyone.  He only fights other plugs who can only fight.  He's too slow to keep up with 99% of the players in the league.  Has no hands, has no offensive contribution, has no discernible defensive contribution.

But he works hard.  Lock him up!

I wouldn't so much call him slow as I would say 'not quick'.  There is a difference.  He can move pretty well as he gets in on the forecheck.  What Orr lacks is directional movement and being able to move quickly in short spaces.

I also think you should ask Rene Bourque whether Colton Orr is intimidating or not. 

Is turning around and cold clocking a guy intimidating?  What did it achieve?  The Leafs played worse against Montreal the rest of the season, so it didn't seem to help the team.

I think you made two very good points with the rhetorical questions.  I do think, however, that Bourque wanted no part of Orr after he got up.  The last point (highlighted), however, is a big inference on your part.  I could just as easily suggest this was Grabovski's fault.  To me, the event(s) we're talking about are irrlevant to the way the Leafs played after that point.

But that's just what I mean, if he was supposed to have intimidated a player on Montreal by what he did, and intimidation is something positive, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that it has had any positive impact.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't agree. Intimidation is a factor with all tough guys, including Colton Orr. The commonly held belief about the downfall of Mike Komisarek's game was that he never got over his beatdown from Milan Lucic. It played on his mind and hurt his confidence.
Orr also had a memorable fight with Lucic a couple of years back. On the video replay you can see the moment Lucic realizes Orr is too tough for him and bails on the fight. That change in mindset affects the players entire game.

The implication from the Komisarek/Lucic fight was that he didn't heal properly, and playing through that - which meant he couldn't play physically without causing himself unmanageable levels of pain - is what lead to his downfall. It wasn't losing the fight itself or any psychological issues, but rather, very real physical issues he couldn't get around which subsequently caused psychological issues. There was no intimidation involved there.

As for Lucic, whatever fight he may have had with Orr certainly hasn't stopped him from being a physical force against the Leafs or anyone else.

 

[Frank E]

I think Orr had a good year, played very little but didn't complain about it, didn't take very many dumb penalties, and forechecked reasonably well.

I've said this before, the ex-players that I talk with suggest that they indeed play with a little more confidence with someone like Orr on the bench...especially when they were younger. 

I don't have a problem with it for less than $1mil.

 

[Arn]

It's for moments like this he has been re-signed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajccFH87y0c

On Brodeur, no less

 

[Tigger]

It's for moments like this he has been re-signed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajccFH87y0c

On Brodeur, no less

Wayne Primeau blocking a Mark Fraser shot with Jamal Mayers lofting a pass to Colton ( with Exelby on the ice too)... wow.

 

[cw]

Orr had a heck of a lot better season than I expected. I thought he was done.

If he doesn't keep it up, they can waive him and his AHL salary would be 100% clear of the NHL cap. Tough guys get hurt more often and they don't tend to last as long. Gotta have more than one in the system. I don't mind the signing. The guy kind of earned (... if any NHL player really "earns" this sort of dough ... ) some sort of an offer.

 

[moon111]

I thought Colton Orr played his role perfectly.
The fact that he tied for 6th on the team in +/-,
was almost even on giveaways/takeaways,
had 78 hits in only 281 minutes...was awesome.
Sure he's a career -33 in the NHL (regular + playoffs),
but Grabs was a -20 in the NHL (regular + playoffs) for just this one season.
He might not skate the best, but he knows his limits for most part and it's
not a problem.

 

[KoHo]

I understand this chart is an oversimplification and there's many more variables to be considered, but this is Toronto's record with and without Orr in the lineup:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBZxpXinYkCdGN4cmhrMXR6R0tCMVUzbWsydnR2U0E#gid=1

(HINT: It's worse when Orr's in the lineup, and even worse when Orr fights).

 

[bustaheims]

I understand this chart is an oversimplification and there's many more variables to be considered, but this is Toronto's record with and without Orr in the lineup:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBZxpXinYkCdGN4cmhrMXR6R0tCMVUzbWsydnR2U0E#gid=1

(HINT: It's worse when Orr's in the lineup, and even worse when Orr fights).

As much as I believe Orr's presence in the lineup doesn't provide much by way of positives, the problem is that you've mistaken correlation for causation here. Orr playing or not playing had little to no influence in the results in the overwhelming majority of those games. In terms of the Leafs record when he fights, the cause and effect relationship is the other way around - guys like Orr are more likely to get into a fight when their team is losing because of the psychologically conditioned belief that a fight changes momentum or gives a lift to a team. The Leafs record when Orr fights is bad because the Leafs were already losing a lot of those games before Orr got into a fight - though, that does provide some evidence in debunking the myth the fights help teams win.

 

[KoHo]

I understand this chart is an oversimplification and there's many more variables to be considered, but this is Toronto's record with and without Orr in the lineup:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBZxpXinYkCdGN4cmhrMXR6R0tCMVUzbWsydnR2U0E#gid=1

(HINT: It's worse when Orr's in the lineup, and even worse when Orr fights).

As much as I believe Orr's presence in the lineup doesn't provide much by way of positives, the problem is that you've mistaken correlation for causation here. Orr playing or not playing had little to no influence in the results in the overwhelming majority of those games. In terms of the Leafs record when he fights, the cause and effect relationship is the other way around - guys like Orr are more likely to get into a fight when their team is losing because of the psychologically conditioned belief that a fight changes momentum or gives a lift to a team. The Leafs record when Orr fights is bad because the Leafs were already losing a lot of those games before Orr got into a fight - though, that does provide some evidence in debunking the myth the fights help teams win.

Good observations, except one detail. From Jeffler's article: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/6/14/problems-with-a-punchers-payday

Of Orr's thirteen fights this season, all of them came in the first 12 minutes of the first period. Toronto's goal differential before an Orr fight was +5, scoring 6 and allowing 1 in 59.3 minutes. Their differential over the 731 minutes played afterwards is -8, scoring 34 and allowing 42.

The Leafs record when Orr fights is bad because the Leafs were already losing a lot of those games before Orr got into a fight

At least for this past season, that's not actually true. Most if not all of Orr's fights were "staged" and near the beginning of the game where little had materialized up to that point. I agree that Orr being in the lineup has little effect on influencing the results of the game, but should the presented correlation be totally dismissed? Orr himself has little impact on the results, but would playing him over MacArthur or Hamilton have an impact?

I don't think Orr's a very good hockey player and would render him unnecessary with another enforcer in the lineup. I like the idea of having an enforcer, it's important to throw around a physical presence and show other teams they can't screw with the Leafs. However, I don't like the idea of having two bricks on the 4th line that take playing time away from players who can contribute in other areas such as defense. Orr or Mclaren, choose one. Not two.