Current Leaf players who will be free agents

[Redleaf]

Yea, maybe just fire Carlyle and see how this team performs under a new coach before trading your elite, franchise player? Because, really, the team was pretty great during stretches with quality goaltending until Randy arrived. I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a negative impact Carlyle is/has had.

if this team falls apart again next season with another epic collapse, then you'd have to seriously consider doing something much more drastic than firing another coach

Well now, that's a whole other kettle of fish. We're talking about what to do now, aren't we?

Yes. That is why I agreed that we should hold on to Kessel for now.

 

[Redleaf]

Yea, maybe just fire Carlyle and see how this team performs under a new coach before trading your elite, franchise player? Because, really, the team was pretty great during stretches with quality goaltending until Randy arrived. I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a negative impact Carlyle is/has had.

And some people are using that as an excuse for deeper running issues with this club.

Nah it's pretty clear: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=6917

And in any event, you can't know if there are deeper running issues until you figure out how much of it was coaching and how much wasn't.  That article, and as Mirtle has pointed out many times, points to very noticeable declines/improvements with/without Carlyle on different teams.

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

 

[Rebel_1812]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR and wait seven or eight more years until we make the playoffs again. Be just like EDM.

Yep. Thats the long and short of it. People said they were willing to be patient the last time this team got ripped apart. Now, here we are 6 years later, and I'm guessing most of those fans are sick and tired of waiting for this club to be competitive again. How does 'another' 6 years sound?

How does "let a bunch of 3rd/4th line players walk" = "restart the rebuild"?

If your first and second liners are over paid you have to start the team gut somewhere.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yea, maybe just fire Carlyle and see how this team performs under a new coach before trading your elite, franchise player? Because, really, the team was pretty great during stretches with quality goaltending until Randy arrived. I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a negative impact Carlyle is/has had.

And some people are using that as an excuse for deeper running issues with this club.

Nah it's pretty clear: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=6917

And in any event, you can't know if there are deeper running issues until you figure out how much of it was coaching and how much wasn't.  That article, and as Mirtle has pointed out many times, points to very noticeable declines/improvements with/without Carlyle on different teams.

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

Those numbers aren't opinion.  They clearly show a sharp downward trend with Carlyle, and in Anaheim's case, an upward trend without him.  You can't be absolutely right about almost anything, but you can arm yourself with the best available data and not choose to willfully ignore it just because it won't give you a 100% answer.  Yes I think a new coach can make a world of difference, or else we wouldn't see such stark contrasts (even between Wilson/Carlyle) like we do between Carlyle/Boudreau, or Boudreau/Oates if you want to take it a step further.

 

[Redleaf]

Yea, maybe just fire Carlyle and see how this team performs under a new coach before trading your elite, franchise player? Because, really, the team was pretty great during stretches with quality goaltending until Randy arrived. I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a negative impact Carlyle is/has had.

And some people are using that as an excuse for deeper running issues with this club.

Nah it's pretty clear: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=6917

And in any event, you can't know if there are deeper running issues until you figure out how much of it was coaching and how much wasn't.  That article, and as Mirtle has pointed out many times, points to very noticeable declines/improvements with/without Carlyle on different teams.

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

Those numbers aren't opinion.  They clearly show a sharp downward trend with Carlyle, and in Anaheim's case, an upward trend without him.  You can't be absolutely right about almost anything, but you can arm yourself with the best available data and not choose to willfully ignore it just because it won't give you a 100% answer.  Yes I think a new coach can make a world of difference, or else we wouldn't see such stark contrasts (even between Wilson/Carlyle) like we do between Carlyle/Boudreau, or Boudreau/Oates if you want to take it a step further.

I've seen numbers support nearly every side of an argument before. Numbers only work when you take out all the other factors that can't be summed up by metrics.  Unfortunately, when you take out those factors, you don't get an accurate enough argument to bet your reputation on. I'm not saying those numbers and the authors conclusions are wrong. I'm just saying nobody can run to the bank with them either.

 

[Bullfrog]

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

For me, it's yes to the blue part and don't know to the purple. But because I feel Carlyle was a major contributor to the lack of success, I feel he has to go. A new coach might not fare any better, but I'd like to give it a try.

Aside from the lack of success, I honestly didn't enjoy watching the Leafs that much. I found it frustrating and boring watching them hemmed in their own end most of the game. I want a new coach just because of the possibility they might become more entertaining again.

 

[TML fan]

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

For me, it's yes to the blue part and don't know to the purple. But because I feel Carlyle was a major contributor to the lack of success, I feel he has to go. A new coach might not fare any better, but I'd like to give it a try.

Aside from the lack of success, I honestly didn't enjoy watching the Leafs that much. I found it frustrating and boring watching them hemmed in their own end most of the game. I want a new coach just because of the possibility they might become more entertaining again.

I watched 1 game after the Olympic break.

 

[AvroArrow]

Opinions are just that. Nothing can be proved one way or another until an actual coaching change has taken place, and the new coach is given a few seasons. Or do you think we can be absolutely be sure right now that Carlyle was the problem with this club and that a new coach will make a world of difference?

For me, it's yes to the blue part and don't know to the purple. But because I feel Carlyle was a major contributor to the lack of success, I feel he has to go. A new coach might not fare any better, but I'd like to give it a try.

Aside from the lack of success, I honestly didn't enjoy watching the Leafs that much. I found it frustrating and boring watching them hemmed in their own end most of the game. I want a new coach just because of the possibility they might become more entertaining again.

I watched 1 game after the Olympic break.

I wasn't far off this...

 

[Kin]

Whether or not their decision to re-tool back then was a proper one is irrelevant now.

No, now that we've seen for sure that it was the wrong decision it should be used to inform future decisions. Aside from the fantasy that this team is only Randy Carlyle's reckless and intentional sabotage away from wrestling the President's Trophy away from the Bruins the Leafs are, as ever, in a situation where there's a serious talent gap between them and the better teams and they need to figure out a way to close that gap if they have a serious inclination towards winning the cup(and I mean "if"). 

Feeling vindicated doesn't do anyone any good.

It does me some good.

 

[2badknees]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR.

I was taking the whole sentence into context.

Well you were reading it out of context because it was clearly a sarcastic reply and nobody else is really advocating that type of plan.

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player. He's tremendously talented offensively, but I look at other teams, and there's 30ish players I'd trade him for straight up and have a better franchise cornerstone.

His return would be considerable right now, and the fans need to cut ties with the idea that we're just one or two players away from a cup. We're about 3 top 10 picks from even having the conversation.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR.

I was taking the whole sentence into context.

Well you were reading it out of context because it was clearly a sarcastic reply and nobody else is really advocating that type of plan.

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player.

Just like they couldn't win with Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour right?

 

[Redleaf]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR.

I was taking the whole sentence into context.

Well you were reading it out of context because it was clearly a sarcastic reply and nobody else is really advocating that type of plan.

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player.

Just like they couldn't win with Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour right?

I think Sundin and Gilmour were cornerstone guys you could build contending teams around. I don't think anyone is saying that Kessel is a guy you build a cup winner around. There is a piece missing on this team. A proper captain and centerpiece. Would you agree with that?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR.

I was taking the whole sentence into context.

Well you were reading it out of context because it was clearly a sarcastic reply and nobody else is really advocating that type of plan.

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player.

Just like they couldn't win with Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour right?

I think Sundin and Gilmour were cornerstone guys you could build contending teams around. I don't think anyone is saying that Kessel is a guy you build a cup winner around. There is a piece missing on this team. A proper captain and centerpiece. Would you agree with that?

No reason you can't build a cup winner around Kessel.

 

[Bullfrog]

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player. He's tremendously talented offensively, but I look at other teams, and there's 30ish players I'd trade him for straight up and have a better franchise cornerstone.

His return would be considerable right now, and the fans need to cut ties with the idea that we're just one or two players away from a cup. We're about 3 top 10 picks from even having the conversation.

How would draft picks help?

 

[Redleaf]

Let them all walk, Trade Kessel and JVR.

I was taking the whole sentence into context.

Well you were reading it out of context because it was clearly a sarcastic reply and nobody else is really advocating that type of plan.

Actually, I'd advocate trading Kessel. My gut tells me that the Leafs are never going to be a successful franchise with him as their best player.

Just like they couldn't win with Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour right?

I think Sundin and Gilmour were cornerstone guys you could build contending teams around. I don't think anyone is saying that Kessel is a guy you build a cup winner around. There is a piece missing on this team. A proper captain and centerpiece. Would you agree with that?

No reason you can't build a cup winner around Kessel.

I'm of the opinion you can build a cup winner 'with' Kessel on the team, but not as the center piece. I still think a proper captain is needed to lead this team to a championship, and neither Kessel nor Phaneuf strike me as being that player.

 

[2badknees]

How would draft picks help?

From what I've seen around the league, top draft picks generally become good players.

 

[2badknees]

I'm of the opinion you can build a cup winner 'with' Kessel on the team, but not as the center piece. I still think a proper captain is needed to lead this team to a championship, and neither Kessel nor Phaneuf strike me as being that player.

And I would argue that you're not likely to get that centerpiece without drafting him.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm of the opinion you can build a cup winner 'with' Kessel on the team, but not as the center piece. I still think a proper captain is needed to lead this team to a championship, and neither Kessel nor Phaneuf strike me as being that player.

Sure, but, really, the only players you can really build a Cup winner around are guys like Crosby. If you don't have that elite, generational type talent, you're always building a team "with" players instead of "around" players.

 

[ZBBM]

I'm of the opinion you can build a cup winner 'with' Kessel on the team, but not as the center piece. I still think a proper captain is needed to lead this team to a championship, and neither Kessel nor Phaneuf strike me as being that player.

I agree, and suspect so do many others.  I remember well this was cw's opinion when he used to post here.

 

[Kin]

Sure, but, really, the only players you can really build a Cup winner around are guys like Crosby. If you don't have that elite, generational type talent, you're always building a team "with" players instead of "around" players.

I think it's a largely meaningless distinction. Jonathan Toews isn't an elite, generational kind of talent but he's a good enough player to be the best player on a cup winner. The team didn't build "around" him as they had Kane, Keith and Seabrook first but he's clearly the player who their team is structured around.

I think the real question should be whether or not the Leafs can become one of the most talented teams in the league, on par with your Chicago's and San Jose's and such, without adding any players who contribute more than Kessel does. "Building around" Kessel should really read as being comfortable with Kessel being the team's best player going forward. To me, if Kessel is the team's best player you're already starting from a disadvantage compared to the, say, 10 or so teams who have better players. Even if we agree that building a cup winner is possible starting from that disadvantage, why should that be anyone's goal?