Falling Leafs

[Bender]

Why is it so clear to people like us and Mirtle but so mind numbingly difficult for Nonis and Carlyle to understand.

 

[Zee]

Hell they were one last season and I think the roster is no worse than it was before.

9 points out isn't really a bubble playoff team.

They were a playoff team for about 70 games until they lost Bernier to injury and he couldn't come back healthy enough.  The 2-12 finish made them look worse than they were.

 

[bustaheims]

They were a playoff team for about 70 games until they lost Bernier to injury and he couldn't come back healthy enough.  The 2-12 finish made them look worse than they were.

No, good stretches in October and January/February made them look better than they were. That same team went through a stretch of 33 games from the beginning of November to mid-January where they won 5 in regulation or OT. The record they ended up with at the end of the season was a pretty fair representation of their overall play this past season.

 

[Redleaf]

They were a playoff team for about 70 games until they lost Bernier to injury and he couldn't come back healthy enough.  The 2-12 finish made them look worse than they were.

No, good stretches in October and January/February made them look better than they were. That same team went through a stretch of 33 games from the beginning of November to mid-January where they won 5 in regulation or OT. The record they ended up with at the end of the season was a pretty fair representation of their overall play this past season.

No. Zee's right. You're wrong. End of Story!

 

[Zee]

They were a playoff team for about 70 games until they lost Bernier to injury and he couldn't come back healthy enough.  The 2-12 finish made them look worse than they were.

No, good stretches in October and January/February made them look better than they were. That same team went through a stretch of 33 games from the beginning of November to mid-January where they won 5 in regulation or OT. The record they ended up with at the end of the season was a pretty fair representation of their overall play this past season.

I disagree that the Leafs were as bad as that 2-12 finish suggested.  Hell even if they were still under 500 for the final 14 games at 6-8, they would have missed the playoffs by 1 point which by my definition is a bubble playoff team.

 

[bustaheims]

I disagree that the Leafs were as bad as that 2-12 finish suggested.  Hell even if they were still under 500 for the final 14 games at 6-8, they would have missed the playoffs by 1 point which by my definition is a bubble playoff team.

But, they didn't, so they weren't. Yes, they underachieved during a 3-13 stretch to end the season, but they also overachieved during the stretch the preceded it. As they often do, things evened out, and the record the Leafs ended up with was the one they deserved based on the way they played all season. When you allow the most shots in the league in 20 years, you deserve a record that puts you well out of the playoffs, and that's exactly what the Leafs got. A team that finishes in the bottom 5 in the league in GA/G is not a bubble team. A team that gets outshot by an average of 8 shots a night is not a bubble team. Where the Leafs were in the standings in the middle of March doesn't matter. Only the numbers at the end of the season do - and, as I've said, their end of season record accurately depicted the way they played for the entire season.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I disagree that the Leafs were as bad as that 2-12 finish suggested.  Hell even if they were still under 500 for the final 14 games at 6-8, they would have missed the playoffs by 1 point which by my definition is a bubble playoff team.

But, they didn't, so they weren't. Yes, they underachieved during a 3-13 stretch to end the season, but they also overachieved during the stretch the preceded it. As they often do, things evened out, and the record the Leafs ended up with was the one they deserved based on the way they played all season. When you allow the most shots in the league in 20 years, you deserve a record that puts you well out of the playoffs, and that's exactly what the Leafs got. A team that finishes in the bottom 5 in the league in GA/G is not a bubble team. A team that gets outshot by an average of 8 shots a night is not a bubble team. Where the Leafs were in the standings in the middle of March doesn't matter. Only the numbers at the end of the season do - and, as I've said, their end of season record accurately depicted the way they played for the entire season.

Plus it was a record buoyed by shootout wins as well, which typically fluctuate from year to year so shouldn't really be considered an accurate reflection of the "team" as a whole.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

The Leafs certainly weren't as bad as their final 15 or so games were played. However, I agree in principle with what Busta is saying, it indeed does always even out and I think where the Leafs ended up is where they should have based on their total body of work last season.

Do I think they were really that bad? No, they have more upside than that, but I think there was some parts of that team that didn't pull the weight they should have and Nonis and Shanahan are right to get rid of those pieces. I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Bullfrog]

More bottle-throwing.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

What do you mean by that?

Maybe competitive was the wrong word. Management calls it "compete level". Consistent could be a better word. I suppose experience comes in there somewhere also.

It's hard to quantify something like that, but I just felt that the same effort wasn't there all the time and that, for what I thought the talent level was at, left me wanting on many occasions. Desire, drive, never-give-up attitude, I don't know what else to call it.

 

[Bullfrog]

Intensity?

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Intensity?

Could be some of that also. I hated that the Leafs were a team lately that turned it on in the last 2-3 minutes of a lot of games, when the 20-30 minutes previous was kind of pond hockeyish, even in the games that they started off well and strong in. Obviously, the latter part bugged me most, I enjoyed the barrages at the end, but felt a lot that they had the game earlier and let it slip away.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

What do you mean by that?

Maybe competitive was the wrong word. Management calls it "compete level". Consistent could be a better word. I suppose experience comes in there somewhere also.

It's hard to quantify something like that, but I just felt that the same effort wasn't there all the time and that, for what I thought the talent level was at, left me wanting on many occasions. Desire, drive, never-give-up attitude, I don't know what else to call it.

Are we sure it's not just a more palatable way to say the team didn't play very well?  The team didn't play particularly well in the shortened lockout season but made the playoffs and you have Leafs brass talking about getting to the 'compete level' of that season again.  To me, if this team had played the exact same way as they did this past season but somehow made the playoffs, 'compete level' would not have been brought up.

IMO it's a way for them to make it seem like it was an issue of effort rather than execution because effort would seem to be an easier thing to diagnose, fix, and sell the fans on than the latter.

 

[Frank E]

I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

What do you mean by that?

Maybe competitive was the wrong word. Management calls it "compete level". Consistent could be a better word. I suppose experience comes in there somewhere also.

It's hard to quantify something like that, but I just felt that the same effort wasn't there all the time and that, for what I thought the talent level was at, left me wanting on many occasions. Desire, drive, never-give-up attitude, I don't know what else to call it.

Are we sure it's not just a more palatable way to say the team didn't play very well?  The team didn't play particularly well in the shortened lockout season but made the playoffs and you have Leafs brass talking about getting to the 'compete level' of that season again.  To me, if this team had played the exact same way as they did this past season but somehow made the playoffs, 'compete level' would not have been brought up.

IMO it's a way for them to make it seem like it was an issue of effort rather than execution because effort would seem to be an easier thing to diagnose, fix, and sell the fans on than the latter.

I might argue the the lack of effort or intensity is part of the lack of execution.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I liked some of the guys that left, but we did need more competitive players, Shanahan is right about that.

What do you mean by that?

Maybe competitive was the wrong word. Management calls it "compete level". Consistent could be a better word. I suppose experience comes in there somewhere also.

It's hard to quantify something like that, but I just felt that the same effort wasn't there all the time and that, for what I thought the talent level was at, left me wanting on many occasions. Desire, drive, never-give-up attitude, I don't know what else to call it.

Are we sure it's not just a more palatable way to say the team didn't play very well?  The team didn't play particularly well in the shortened lockout season but made the playoffs and you have Leafs brass talking about getting to the 'compete level' of that season again.  To me, if this team had played the exact same way as they did this past season but somehow made the playoffs, 'compete level' would not have been brought up.

IMO it's a way for them to make it seem like it was an issue of effort rather than execution because effort would seem to be an easier thing to diagnose, fix, and sell the fans on than the latter.

I might argue the the lack of effort or intensity is part of the lack of execution.

I'm not necessarily trying to say it's not an issue, I have no way of knowing whether it is and I'm not confident in the ability of fans to accurately and consistently analyze the 'compete level'/'intensity'/'effort' of NHL players.  From what I do know based on the management's comments is that they seem to think the 12-13 team had a good 'compete level' when I tend to think that team was getting heavily outplayed as well and were saved by a short season/goaltending - which leads me to believe they are equating that success = compete level was good.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Are we sure it's not just a more palatable way to say the team didn't play very well?  The team didn't play particularly well in the shortened lockout season but made the playoffs and you have Leafs brass talking about getting to the 'compete level' of that season again.  To me, if this team had played the exact same way as they did this past season but somehow made the playoffs, 'compete level' would not have been brought up.

IMO it's a way for them to make it seem like it was an issue of effort rather than execution because effort would seem to be an easier thing to diagnose, fix, and sell the fans on than the latter.

Sure, but I don't think it was all players and there are a whole lot of variables that go into these things I think. Like I said, it's hard to quantify, but I see some of the things management appears to see.

It's not like Carlyle is getting a free pass here either, I think he'll be on a very short leash this early season. I'm not convinced that management is trying to sell a bill of goods to people, their theory will be put to the test.

 

[Zee]

The upper management can talk about compete level all they want, but the firing of the assistants and the talk about the "swarm" defense not working leads me to believe they'll abandon Carlyle's old coaching philosophy.  I fully expect the Leafs to attempt to play a more possession style game, which would lead to not getting widely outshot every game.  If they're able to make that transition, the results should get better, and all of a sudden "compete" isn't an issue.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The upper management can talk about compete level all they want, but the firing of the assistants and the talk about the "swarm" defense not working leads me to believe they'll abandon Carlyle's old coaching philosophy.  I fully expect the Leafs to attempt to play a more possession style game, which would lead to not getting widely outshot every game.  If they're able to make that transition, the results should get better, and all of a sudden "compete" isn't an issue.

Or it could be that the firing of the assistants leaves Carlyle in a position to dictate the style of play, so it could be more of the same stupid style.  If the Leafs start the season as how they finished last  season I cannot see how they make the playoffs regardless when they stop playing the 'collapse in front of the net' style or the 'spend 2 minutes chasing the other team with the puck' style.  3 points in 20 games will not do it for the Leafs or any other team for that matter - they would have to win 45 of the remaining 60 games just to have a shot.

What I would like to see is the Leafs play a more agressive style of play that makes it difficult for other teams to access the Leafs defensive zone, to minimize scoring chances for other teams, that allows for a quick transition from defense to offence and yes, less SOG.   

 

[bustaheims]

The upper management can talk about compete level all they want, but the firing of the assistants and the talk about the "swarm" defense not working leads me to believe they'll abandon Carlyle's old coaching philosophy.  I fully expect the Leafs to attempt to play a more possession style game, which would lead to not getting widely outshot every game.  If they're able to make that transition, the results should get better, and all of a sudden "compete" isn't an issue.

I hope so, but, this is fully in the "I'll believe it when I see" pile.