Goaltending conundrum

[TML fan]

Aside from not believing the Leafs have the personnel to play a better defensive system, I don't think it would matter because they don't have the goaltending to bail them out if they make a mistake.

 

[drummond]

Time to try Scrivens again, or even give a try to Owuya?
Let Gus play and Ben can be back up send Reimer to Marlies and give him 5 in a row to get the confidence back or something.

 

[Zee]

Wilson said you can't blame Reimer, so no worries he gets the next start.

 

[leafplasma]

I think so. Playing a defensive system isnt going to prevent some of the goals these goalies let in. The Leafs just dont have a number one goaltender.

Or, you know, it would, because teams wouldn't be so confident they can create scoring chances, pick up rebounds and easily get the puck back, so they wouldn't take any opportunity just to throw the puck on net. Also, behind a better defensive system, you'd see goalies with more confidence that would be playing more aggressively and making the stops on some of these perceived soft goals. They wouldn't be getting caught out of position anywhere close to as much, because their defence wouldn't be putting them in as many situations where they're prone to be caught out of position. There's be less odd man rushes, less players left untouched in front of the net, less 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances, etc. A better defensive system, if properly executed (which is the real issue, as far as I'm concerned), would change everything.

Absolutely, the Blues are the first team in the history of the league to have two goalies with 6 shutouts each.  So Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak are this good?

Brian Elliott 1.55 .941 6 SO
Jaroslav Halak 1.97  .923 6 SO

Under Hitch the Blues turned their season around and are 30-8-7.  Under Davis Payne they were 6-8 before he was fired with a 2.49 GAA, still a solid GAA but since then in three times the games played Hitchcock has them playing to a 1.73 GAA.

Now would a guy like Hitchcock be right for this team, maybe not, that is up for debate.  However, suffice to say some kind of a defensive system surely would make our goaltending look better, our dman like Komi and Schenn look better.  This team doesn't need to stop using their speed, they just need some direction behind the bench and a plan to start employing some of what Busta is saying here.  RW has the kind of extended leash most coaches dream of.  Time to cut the rope Burkie or your going down with the ship and Wilson has you by the ankles.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Time to try Scrivens again, or even give a try to Owuya?
Let Gus play and Ben can be back up send Reimer to Marlies and give him 5 in a row to get the confidence back or something.

I think this is actually a pretty good idea.

I think Reimer has it in him, but he just needs some games in a row with little pressure to see the puck better a clean up his positioning. Scrivens showed he was at least somewhat capable as a back up and has played well for the Marlies.

I'd give Gus most starts (unless he bombs) and give Scrivens 2 games max. See how Reimer does in his 5 games, and if he looks ready, bring him back up.

 

[Andy007]

Time to try Scrivens again, or even give a try to Owuya?
Let Gus play and Ben can be back up send Reimer to Marlies and give him 5 in a row to get the confidence back or something.

I think this is actually a pretty good idea.



I'd give Gus most starts (unless he bombs) and give Scrivens 2 games max. See how Reimer does in his 5 games, and if he looks ready, bring him back up.

Can Reimer be sent down without having to clear waivers?

 

[L K]

I think so. Playing a defensive system isnt going to prevent some of the goals these goalies let in. The Leafs just dont have a number one goaltender.

Or, you know, it would, because teams wouldn't be so confident they can create scoring chances, pick up rebounds and easily get the puck back, so they wouldn't take any opportunity just to throw the puck on net. Also, behind a better defensive system, you'd see goalies with more confidence that would be playing more aggressively and making the stops on some of these perceived soft goals. They wouldn't be getting caught out of position anywhere close to as much, because their defence wouldn't be putting them in as many situations where they're prone to be caught out of position. There's be less odd man rushes, less players left untouched in front of the net, less 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances, etc. A better defensive system, if properly executed (which is the real issue, as far as I'm concerned), would change everything.

The thing that actually surprises me is how this team isn't capable of playing a transitional game.  To me, a team with the kind of speed the Leafs have should actually be pretty dangerous if they tried to prey on turnovers rather than trying to skate really fast through a sea of bodies in the neutral zone.  The fact that Wilson has them play the exact same way against every team is kind of disturbing.  Every team that plays physical and big has been destroying the Leafs

Philly, Calgary, Vancouver, Boston, New York Rangers, Nashville are all more physical teams that really do a good job of clogging everything up.  In general they are the top teams in the league but Philly, Calgary and Nashville are more in the middling territory where they aren't the best but are in playoff races at least.
The Leafs record against these teams is: 3-11-0 (NYR x2; Calgary x1)
Considering that their overall record is 5 games over .500 with 6 overtime points, that's really flipping bad. 
Stop trying to play run and gun against teams that completely drown out the neutral zone and forecheck really hard.  The forward still leak up the ice too fast and leave the defensemen trying to make plays they aren't capable of making. 

 

[leafplasma]

Time to try Scrivens again, or even give a try to Owuya?
Let Gus play and Ben can be back up send Reimer to Marlies and give him 5 in a row to get the confidence back or something.

I think this is actually a pretty good idea.



I'd give Gus most starts (unless he bombs) and give Scrivens 2 games max. See how Reimer does in his 5 games, and if he looks ready, bring him back up.

Can Reimer be sent down without having to clear waivers?

Yes Reimer is exempt and should be sent down the same way Gus was last year.  That would require responsible coaching though and according to Burke, RW picks his team and sets the lineup. 

 

[Zee]

I think so. Playing a defensive system isnt going to prevent some of the goals these goalies let in. The Leafs just dont have a number one goaltender.

Or, you know, it would, because teams wouldn't be so confident they can create scoring chances, pick up rebounds and easily get the puck back, so they wouldn't take any opportunity just to throw the puck on net. Also, behind a better defensive system, you'd see goalies with more confidence that would be playing more aggressively and making the stops on some of these perceived soft goals. They wouldn't be getting caught out of position anywhere close to as much, because their defence wouldn't be putting them in as many situations where they're prone to be caught out of position. There's be less odd man rushes, less players left untouched in front of the net, less 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances, etc. A better defensive system, if properly executed (which is the real issue, as far as I'm concerned), would change everything.

Absolutely, the Blues are the first team in the history of the league to have two goalies with 6 shutouts each.  So Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak are this good?

Brian Elliott 1.55 .941 6 SO
Jaroslav Halak 1.97  .923 6 SO

Under Hitch the Blues turned their season around and are 30-8-7.  Under Davis Payne they were 6-8 before he was fired with a 2.49 GAA, still a solid GAA but since then in three times the games played Hitchcock has them playing to a 1.73 GAA.

Now would a guy like Hitchcock be right for this team, maybe not, that is up for debate.  However, suffice to say some kind of a defensive system surely would make our goaltending look better, our dman like Komi and Schenn look better.  This team doesn't need to stop using their speed, they just need some direction behind the bench and a plan to start employing some of what Busta is saying here.  RW has the kind of extended leash most coaches dream of.  Time to cut the rope Burkie or your going down with the ship and Wilson has you by the ankles.

The 2nd half of last season (from Jan onward) and the start of this season was the worst thing that could have happened to the Leafs. It saved Wilson's job and put the Leafs at least one more season behind in getting a great coach. I would have loved to snap up Hitchcock before St. Louis did. Elliot goes from a sieve in Ottawa to one of the best goalies in the league?  Yeah coaching has no effect whatsoever.

 

[nutman]

I think so. Playing a defensive system isnt going to prevent some of the goals these goalies let in. The Leafs just dont have a number one goaltender.

Or, you know, it would, because teams wouldn't be so confident they can create scoring chances, pick up rebounds and easily get the puck back, so they wouldn't take any opportunity just to throw the puck on net. Also, behind a better defensive system, you'd see goalies with more confidence that would be playing more aggressively and making the stops on some of these perceived soft goals. They wouldn't be getting caught out of position anywhere close to as much, because their defence wouldn't be putting them in as many situations where they're prone to be caught out of position. There's be less odd man rushes, less players left untouched in front of the net, less 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances, etc. A better defensive system, if properly executed (which is the real issue, as far as I'm concerned), would change everything.

Absolutely, the Blues are the first team in the history of the league to have two goalies with 6 shutouts each.  So Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak are this good?

Brian Elliott 1.55 .941 6 SO
Jaroslav Halak 1.97  .923 6 SO

Under Hitch the Blues turned their season around and are 30-8-7.  Under Davis Payne they were 6-8 before he was fired with a 2.49 GAA, still a solid GAA but since then in three times the games played Hitchcock has them playing to a 1.73 GAA.

Now would a guy like Hitchcock be right for this team, maybe not, that is up for debate.  However, suffice to say some kind of a defensive system surely would make our goaltending look better, our dman like Komi and Schenn look better.  This team doesn't need to stop using their speed, they just need some direction behind the bench and a plan to start employing some of what Busta is saying here.  RW has the kind of extended leash most coaches dream of.  Time to cut the rope Burkie or your going down with the ship and Wilson has you by the ankles.

The 2nd half of last season (from Jan onward) and the start of this season was the worst thing that could have happened to the Leafs. It saved Wilson's job and put the Leafs at least one more season behind in getting a great coach. I would have loved to snap up Hitchcock before St. Louis did. Elliot goes from a sieve in Ottawa to one of the best goalies in the league?  Yeah coaching has no effect whatsoever.

Well put Zee... well put.

 

[Tigger]

Yeah coaching has no effect whatsoever.

Has that argument really been made? At best the conversation seems to be about degrees of success and influence depending on the situation.

St. Louis success is probably more about the right fit than anything else, if Columbus is/was any indication that is.

Wilson is an NHL calibre coach that you hate, I get that, but it's far from the worst thing that could have happened to the Leafs.

This is an interesting quote from Armstrong...

?There?s a lot to be said about continuity,? Armstrong added. ?The players now understand that they have to take responsibility for their play. It?s not going to be someone else who is going to pay the piper for inadequacies in the group. That longevity is something we all strive for.?

But in the high-stakes world of professional sports, Armstrong said, patience is easy to preach and hard to put into practice.

?Making a change for change?s sake, I don?t buy,? continued Armstrong, who previously served as general manager in Dallas from 2002-2007. ?In Dallas, I hired Dave Tippet and we were together until I got let go. I always believed Dave was the best coach for the job so we never made a change. Ultimately, [ownership] decided to change the manager because he wouldn?t change the coach.?

 

[TML fan]

I will say this for Gustavsson. He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg. I thought he played well against Calgary and didn't really let in a bad goal despite getting lit up for 4. Reimer on the other hand has just been atrocious save for the 2nd period in Edmonton.

In fairness to Wilson (who I don't like being fair to), he went with the goalie that won the last game. I would say that Gustavsson has only been slightly better than Reimer over the last little while. He should get the next start though.

 

[leafplasma]

I will say this for Gustavsson. He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg. I thought he played well against Calgary and didn't really let in a bad goal despite getting lit up for 4. Reimer on the other hand has just been atrocious save for the 2nd period in Edmonton.

In fairness to Wilson (who I don't like being fair to), he went with the goalie that won the last game. I would say that Gustavsson has only been slightly better than Reimer over the last little while. He should get the next start though.

Huh, brutal in Winnipeg???.  Slightly better than Reimer???  Gus earned the right to continue what he started in January.  If your looking at overall year to date stats, then please stop.  Did some number crunching in another thread and please tell me how Gus has been bad or deserved to have the number one spot snatched away from him:

Reimer is 1-3 since his two shutouts and his GAA is 4.27 along with save % of .858. Reimer has started 7 of the last 9 games and keeps being sent out there. Gus has been forced to mop up in blowouts a couple of games which does nothing for a goalies confidence coming in cold and being thrown to the wolves when a team has given up.  In the two starts Gus was good in one losing 2-1 and allowed 5 in another losing 5-1.  What do you expect from a goalie that has been blindsided like he has.  Gus has been given the raw end of the stick, sure he lost those 2 starts but this is a guy who had his starting job stolen from him after having it handed to him in January.  He was 7-3-1 with 3 shutouts and a GAA of 2.08 and a save  % of .926.  Do those seem like the type of numbers that would warrant  a goalie to lose his starting job? Gus had finally got the Leafs on the right track and a playoff spot was looking likely.  So Reimer comes in with a couple of shutouts and all that Gus had achieved is forgotten.

Some may think that I am a little relentless in my backing up of Gus but this is just maddening for me.  I wanted Gus right back in there after Reimer got that first shutout.  Ron Wilson should be fired for a lot things and the handling of the goaltending situation is blatantly ridiculous, I am sorry.

Your memory is as short as Wilson's.

 

[Tigger]

He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg.

2 goals on 29 shots is brutal? One with an odour, sure but that doesn't sound that brutal to me as a whole, doesn't jive with my memory of the game either... Jonas kept them in it with some big saves later in the game, Lombardi should have cleared the puck after a big first save on the second goal and had a great opportunity to tie the game with around 5 minutes to go.

I'm not convinced this 'win and you're in' mentality is the right move either, fwiw, clearly Jonas has been the better goalie this year and deserves the lions share of the starts at this point.

Not sure who mentioned it but I think there's some truth to the notion that Jonas plays better when he gets a lot of work.

 

[TML fan]

I will say this for Gustavsson. He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg. I thought he played well against Calgary and didn't really let in a bad goal despite getting lit up for 4. Reimer on the other hand has just been atrocious save for the 2nd period in Edmonton.

In fairness to Wilson (who I don't like being fair to), he went with the goalie that won the last game. I would say that Gustavsson has only been slightly better than Reimer over the last little while. He should get the next start though.

Huh, brutal in Winnipeg???.  Slightly better than Reimer???  Gus earned the right to continue what he started in January.  If your looking at overall year to date stats, then please stop.  Did some number crunching in another thread and please tell me how Gus has been bad or deserved to have the number one spot snatched away from him:

Reimer is 1-3 since his two shutouts and his GAA is 4.27 along with save % of .858. Reimer has started 7 of the last 9 games and keeps being sent out there. Gus has been forced to mop up in blowouts a couple of games which does nothing for a goalies confidence coming in cold and being thrown to the wolves when a team has given up.  In the two starts Gus was good in one losing 2-1 and allowed 5 in another losing 5-1.  What do you expect from a goalie that has been blindsided like he has.  Gus has been given the raw end of the stick, sure he lost those 2 starts but this is a guy who had his starting job stolen from him after having it handed to him in January.  He was 7-3-1 with 3 shutouts and a GAA of 2.08 and a save  % of .926.  Do those seem like the type of numbers that would warrant  a goalie to lose his starting job? Gus had finally got the Leafs on the right track and a playoff spot was looking likely.  So Reimer comes in with a couple of shutouts and all that Gus had achieved is forgotten.

Some may think that I am a little relentless in my backing up of Gus but this is just maddening for me.  I wanted Gus right back in there after Reimer got that first shutout.  Ron Wilson should be fired for a lot things and the handling of the goaltending situation is blatantly ridiculous, I am sorry.

Your memory is as short as Wilson's.

First of all, calm down. Secondly, go watch the highlights of the Winnipeg game. That first goal was downright brutal. That's all I'm looking at. I never said Gustavsson doesn't deserve to be starting, I said he was brutal in Winnipeg, good in Calgary (despite letting in 5, not 4) and that, over the last little while (10 games), he hasn't been that much better than Reimer. They've only won 4 of their last 10 games. Reimer was in net for all of them.

 

[McPwnage]

Funny how just a couple weeks ago it looked like we had two capable starting goaltenders and now it doesn't look like we have one. 

 

[TML fan]

He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg.

2 goals on 29 shots is brutal? One with an odour, sure but that doesn't sound that brutal to me as a whole, doesn't jive with my memory of the game either... Jonas kept them in it with some big saves later in the game, Lombardi should have cleared the puck after a big first save on the second goal and had a great opportunity to tie the game with around 5 minutes to go.

I'm not convinced this 'win and you're in' mentality is the right move either, fwiw, clearly Jonas has been the better goalie this year and deserves the lions share of the starts at this point.

Not sure who mentioned it but I think there's some truth to the notion that Jonas plays better when he gets a lot of work.

Well, you know my opinion about goalies letting in bad and/or untimely goals and how it affects the team. That's where I got brutal from. He made some nice saves but that first goal was a team killer. My memory of the game had Gustavsson fighting the puck all night long.

 

[Tigger]

Well, after coming off winning 3 straight and all, if one weak goal to only tie the game that early is a confidence killer then there's really more wrong with the team than any one thing will fix, asking for perfection from a goalie is not a realistic winning strategy over the course of the year. ( not that you're saying that )

If that's the case learning to fight harder through adversity becomes job #1 on a long list but for a young team there's probably some truth to that right now, not sure I agree that it killed the team that night as Winnipeg played pretty well too and limited the Leafs to just 18 shots.

 

[Boston Leaf]

when will justin pogge be ready?

 

[leafplasma]

I will say this for Gustavsson. He was pretty brutal in Winnipeg. I thought he played well against Calgary and didn't really let in a bad goal despite getting lit up for 4. Reimer on the other hand has just been atrocious save for the 2nd period in Edmonton.

In fairness to Wilson (who I don't like being fair to), he went with the goalie that won the last game. I would say that Gustavsson has only been slightly better than Reimer over the last little while. He should get the next start though.

Huh, brutal in Winnipeg???.  Slightly better than Reimer???  Gus earned the right to continue what he started in January.  If your looking at overall year to date stats, then please stop.  Did some number crunching in another thread and please tell me how Gus has been bad or deserved to have the number one spot snatched away from him:

Reimer is 1-3 since his two shutouts and his GAA is 4.27 along with save % of .858. Reimer has started 7 of the last 9 games and keeps being sent out there. Gus has been forced to mop up in blowouts a couple of games which does nothing for a goalies confidence coming in cold and being thrown to the wolves when a team has given up.  In the two starts Gus was good in one losing 2-1 and allowed 5 in another losing 5-1.  What do you expect from a goalie that has been blindsided like he has.  Gus has been given the raw end of the stick, sure he lost those 2 starts but this is a guy who had his starting job stolen from him after having it handed to him in January.  He was 7-3-1 with 3 shutouts and a GAA of 2.08 and a save  % of .926.  Do those seem like the type of numbers that would warrant  a goalie to lose his starting job? Gus had finally got the Leafs on the right track and a playoff spot was looking likely.  So Reimer comes in with a couple of shutouts and all that Gus had achieved is forgotten.

Some may think that I am a little relentless in my backing up of Gus but this is just maddening for me.  I wanted Gus right back in there after Reimer got that first shutout.  Ron Wilson should be fired for a lot things and the handling of the goaltending situation is blatantly ridiculous, I am sorry.

Your memory is as short as Wilson's.

First of all, calm down. Secondly, go watch the highlights of the Winnipeg game. That first goal was downright brutal. That's all I'm looking at. I never said Gustavsson doesn't deserve to be starting, I said he was brutal in Winnipeg, good in Calgary (despite letting in 5, not 4) and that, over the last little while (10 games), he hasn't been that much better than Reimer. They've only won 4 of their last 10 games. Reimer was in net for all of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpK_xK4qfs4&feature=related

Tim Thomas embarrassing goal, they happen to the best of them.  Gus was not bad in Winnipeg and I will take that kind of bad over what I have been watching lately.  Face the music buddy, Gus was shafted here.  I am not saying Gus is Belfour here but he gave us great goaltending and got us back in the hunt when things looked bad come the New Year.  Did you not acknowledge the stat line I listed. Don't  feed me the last 10 games BS, you come in cold when the team mails it in against the Habs and Nucks.    You suddenly see your starting job taken undeservedly when your playing the best goal of your career.  Gus was robbed and I hope he gets dealt out of this Ron Wilson circus act.