Horachek's impact on the team

[Chris]

I don't really know that much about the available candidates. However, regarding Horachek - I believe he was elevated to the position of interim head coach and given one mandate - impose a more possession/defensive based system and see how the players respond. I'm pretty sure Shanahan had already decided that a number of core players needed to be moved out and this was a way to identify exactly how many. The players answered that with a resounding "most of us".

Horacheck has done his job. When the team didn't respond and the losing continued, the most logical approach was to just let things go in order to secure the best possible draft position.

 

[cw]

Ten candidates to replace Randy Carlyle as next coach of Maple Leafs
Here's the names
Pete DeBoer
Mike Babcock - media pipe dream
Dan Bylsma
Todd McLellan - intrigued but not available & probably want to get to a more competitive team
Peter Horachek - need change of scenery
Dale Hunter - don't know about the brother thing
Steve Spott - need change of scenery
Paul MacLean
Kevin Dineen
Dallas Eakins - I like him for this role but he's probably had it with rebuilds & would like to coach a real NHL team

Maybe a non-players, teaching coach  is what is needed most

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Long shot...Sheldon Keefe.

I hope he is coaching the Marlies at least.

 

[hockeyfan1]

An interview with Rick Vaive. (Article dales to 2014).  Vaive, who was the first Maple Leaf to score 50 goals in three straight seasons, and whose career as a Leaf spanned seven years,  gives his thoughts on the current team,  his experiences as an NHLer, and the like:

"Nobody goes to the rink with the intention of not working hard. But for many they have to learn how to do it, or be brought along properly..."

"...a team that hasn?t really figured out how to win as a group yet. It?s something you have to learn together. When you look at an organization like the Detroit Red Wings, they had people to show you how it?s done.

If you remember, when Datsyuk and Zetterberg first come up in the playoffs they did nothing. Everybody was all over them. They had to figure it out and mature into the players they are now. Maybe we are seeing some of that with guys like Kadri. It takes time...there?s no guarantees..."

"Winning has to be developed as well, and for this team there is a big learning curve. Typically, what you want to do is build your team through the draft. Then what you do is you let guys grow together until they are ready. Toronto has not had the best draft record until recently, but the best organizations backbone is proper development. "

..."You need skill, sure, but it takes character to win..."

For the full-scale interview:
http://leafshub.com/one-on-one-with-rick-vaive-part-1/

 

[Bullfrog]

A common term we often hear these days to the point of irritation to me in the media and from coaches is "compete level". It just bugs me a little from overuse - I guess because it's fashionable. But there's something to be said for the internal make up of a competitor - that's been universal and spans decades in sports and arguably centuries in other walks of life.

Some guys have some competitive fire deep within them and they HATE to lose. They don't need a coach to tell them how much they hate losing. Others don't seem as bothered when they lose. I don't think one coaches that or "motivates" a player to really feel that. It's either there or it isn't. Maybe the good coach peels back a few layers to get a player more in touch with that.

https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/567787301259198464

Maybe he's bipolar. Because it's pretty difficult to see any sign of that over the last month or two. Media and fans observed it. So did his coach.

Something else that kind of reinforces it: Horachek cut Lupul some slack for his injuries last night. He's complimented a number of his players for their effort.

You'd think when Horachek, Bernier and others cut loose, when the media wrote stuff like this:
The mind-bending slump of Phil Kessel
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/the-mind-bending-slump-of-phil-kessel-1.237357
- which really goes beyond calling it a mere slump

.. you'd think someone at the Leafs would jump to the $64 mil dollar man's defense. But all we've really heard for a while in that regard is crickets.

Why aren't Phil's teammates and management falling over themselves to defend him against the allegations and citing what a tremendous effort he's been making?

They're not in the mood? Doesn't jive. You wouldn't let a teammate swing in the breeze like that if he'd been busting his butt for you.

Dreger discusses it near the end of this audio

Maybe there's a 2 page foreword a coach wrote in one of those coach's books I haven't read where they covered this. 

I was just pointing out how a former teammate views Kessel's hate of losing.

I didn't mention anything about effort.

 

[cw]

I was just pointing out how a former teammate views Kessel's hate of losing.

I didn't mention anything about effort.

I guess I'm operating on the assumption that if an athlete really "hates" something happening to them, that they will make every effort to avoid what they "hate" happening to them.

Trying to be open minded, I tried to turn it around and think of where an athlete who was known to "hate" losing, didn't make an effort. I suppose anything is possible but I couldn't think of an example.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Kin]

Now, you hope a young man getting tagged with that stuff grows out of it. Many do. But Julien had his problems with Phil. Ron Wilson described the core/Phil as uncoachable at times. Carlyle/Spott had some tough moments with Phil. And now, Phil's quit on Horachek. Two of those NHL coaches have Cup rings.

Yes, clearly I was the one using bogus criteria for what makes a coach's opinion especially valid.

 

[Al14]

I was just pointing out how a former teammate views Kessel's hate of losing.

I didn't mention anything about effort.

I guess I'm operating on the assumption that if an athlete really "hates" something happening to them, that they will make every effort to avoid what they "hate" happening to them.

Trying to be open minded, I tried to turn it around and think of where an athlete who was known to "hate" losing, didn't make an effort. I suppose anything is possible but I couldn't think of an example.

Actions speak louder than words.

Kessel's love of his pay cheque vastly surpasses his love of winning hockey games.  His lazy attitude reflects the fact he's scored hugely on the financial side of playing hockey.  He's got nothing to work towards now!

If the team he plays for drags him into the playoffs, then, so be it, if not, there's always fishing in Florida for an extended off season!  I think his play this season reflects this attitude nicely.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Good lord.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The crazy thing is that we're letting like 25 games of Kessel quiting on a season that was already over take priority over the previous 400~ where he was definitely our best player. Was he a perfect player in those other 400 games? No. Did he ever show signs of being a quitter? No, get away from me.

 

[Kin]

Kessel's love of his pay cheque vastly surpasses his love of winning hockey games.  His lazy attitude reflects the fact he's scored hugely on the financial side of playing hockey.  He's got nothing to work towards now!

None of that stands up to even the most rudimentary attempt at thought. Most of what Kessel is being criticized for now has always been true of him. In fact, as people have pointed out, some said it was true of him at the draft.

Either this deficiency in Kessel existed prior to this year or it didn't. You can't have it both ways. If it did, then his slump this year can't be attributed to his new contract. If it didn't, then you have to explain why Kessel put in the showing he did last year and the first half of this year despite the big extension already being signed.

 

[TML fan]

Stop! Stop! It's already dead...  :'( :'( :'(

 

[Frank E]

I think that some people can cheer for soft Kessel when he's scoring at a 40 goal pace...when he's not, they don't like soft Kessel.  Par for the course stuff with guys that play a Kessel-like game. 

I don't think there's much more to it...we certainly can't blame the failures of the whole season on Kessel.  He's just an easy target when he's not scoring.

 

[Bullfrog]

Kessel's love of his pay cheque vastly surpasses his love of winning hockey games.  His lazy attitude reflects the fact he's scored hugely on the financial side of playing hockey.  He's got nothing to work towards now!

If the team he plays for drags him into the playoffs, then, so be it, if not, there's always fishing in Florida for an extended off season!  I think his play this season reflects this attitude nicely.

I?m a sports fan, so I?m familiar with the stigma ? guy signs a big contract and then starts taking it easy.

Let?s address that for a moment: It?s bullshit. This is the National Hockey League and the game has only one speed. We all work hard. That?s just the way it is. Over my last decade and a half in the NHL, I only saw one or two guys who I think weren?t as committed to the sport as much as they should have been. If you don?t put everything you have into this game, you open yourself up for injury and, the worst possible punishment for a hockey player, losing the respect of your peers. But, that being said, I also get the fans? perspective. If I was sitting in the stands, I might have started booing me too.

 

[Highlander]

Can we stop beating on Phil now.  He is taking a bigger whipping than Jesus in "The  Passion of the Christ". 

 

[cw]

Kessel's love of his pay cheque vastly surpasses his love of winning hockey games.  His lazy attitude reflects the fact he's scored hugely on the financial side of playing hockey.  He's got nothing to work towards now!

If the team he plays for drags him into the playoffs, then, so be it, if not, there's always fishing in Florida for an extended off season!  I think his play this season reflects this attitude nicely.

I?m a sports fan, so I?m familiar with the stigma ? guy signs a big contract and then starts taking it easy.

Let?s address that for a moment: It?s bull#$#%. This is the National Hockey League and the game has only one speed. We all work hard. That?s just the way it is. Over my last decade and a half in the NHL, I only saw one or two guys who I think weren?t as committed to the sport as much as they should have been. If you don?t put everything you have into this game, you open yourself up for injury and, the worst possible punishment for a hockey player, losing the respect of your peers. But, that being said, I also get the fans? perspective. If I was sitting in the stands, I might have started booing me too.

I think I'd generally agree with Gomez. The frequency of the allegation is far greater than the reality.

In this particular case with Kessel, I don't agree. For one thing, he has had some history of issues like this before he was paid a lot so I'm not convinced it can be simply explained away by his contract. His contract may be a factor in some way but I don't think it's a major factor.

It's interesting that we can consider sweeping statements by Gomez who is unfamiliar with the specifics here and to my knowledge, is speaking in general terms - not specifically about Kessel. But we can dismiss specific statements by members of the team like Bernier and others or the coach alleging a lack of effort. And that's backed up by what we've seen on the ice and see in the stats.

Gomez says "I only saw one or two guys who I think weren?t as committed to the sport as much as they should have been" And Phil's teammates probably basically say to themselves "yeah, we have a few of those guys here". And some are concluding "since it's rare in Gomez's experience, then it cannot be so with Kessel's line" ... when a bunch of the testimony and evidence suggests otherwise?

A kicker for me is how come no one in the Leafs locker room, coaches or management is doing a Gomez for Kessel and his line? I asked that before: How come Phil's team won't stand up for his line?

Maybe Gomez can answer that one.

 

[Chris]

Then you have the article I saw today where former Leaf Jeff O'Neill is ripping Kessel, saying among other things, "He never works hard enough."

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/24/nhler-turned-broadcaster-jeff-oneill-tells-it-like-it-is-when-it-comes-to-the-toronto-maple-leafs

Who do you believe, Gomez or O'Neill?

 

[Kin]

For future reference, the answer to the above question will always be "Whoever is not Jeff O'Neill".

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Who do you believe, Gomez or O'Neill?

Seriously? Kessel-bashers aren't even trying anymore.

 

[Chris]

Who do you believe, Gomez or O'Neill?

Seriously? Kessel-bashers aren't even trying anymore.

Explain your reasoning, please.

One former player says "Kessel isn't working hard enough" and another says "players always work hard (except for 1 or 2)".

I know which one sounds more believable to me, and it's not the one not named O'Neill.