#1PilarFan
New member
Yeah, I think that goes without saying. I'm sure Burke's job is difficult, but I'm also pretty sure he's had several years to build a team and what he's built in that time is underwhelming.OldTimeHockey said:
How have the Leafs made out this off-season?
- Thread starter Rick C.
- Start date
#1PilarFan said:
I tend to believe that the greatest asset the Leafs may have in the next few years is an enormous cap space. This fact in intself could be greatest Burke achievment. With that cap space the Leafs eventually could do Jamie Macoun for Pavel Bure type of trades as many teams would be literally forced to trade some of their best players for low salary garbage.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
#1PilarFan said:
Have you seen the comparison between the team before he took over and the team now? It's one thing I've actually been impressed with.
moon111
New member
By saying he's had several years, one means less then four right? In 88 days, it'll be Nov 29th...four years since he's take over. A team with no Sundin. Matt Stajan is highest scoring center. Only two players play 80 games or more. Toskala, Joseph, Gerber, Pogge were the goalies. Dominic Moore was 7th in scoring. Kubina was the highest scoring defenseman. The J.F.J.-era isn't even over yet. There's still 2 more years on Darcy Tucker's buy-out.#1PilarFan said:
I think Burke and company would enjoy seeing the cap come down to the point other teams end up in cap trouble. And MLSE wouldn't mind seeing less money transferred to poorer clubs as well. A successful lock-out would be a win-win for Toronto.drummond said:
#1PilarFan
New member
The team he took over finished with 83 points in 2007-2008. Under Burke, the Leafs have averaged 80 points per year. It's a sexier team, but no, I'm not terribly impressed. And maybe you shouldn't be either.OldTimeHockey said:
#1PilarFan
New member
By several, I mean several.moon111 said:
Hey, I'm with you - they were a bad team. Where we disagree is I think the 2011-2012 Leafs were also a bad team. Same with the 2010-2011 Leafs. And the 2009-2010 Leafs.
That is all speculation. Sure, Burke might take advantage of the CBA. Or the CBA might hinder him even more. I don't know what will happen. Alls I know is this current incarnation of the Leafs isn't very good and the GM knows it, yet is unwilling or unable to do anything about it.drummond said:
bustaheims
Active member
OldTimeHockey said:
Yeah. I mean, when you look at the Leafs roster from when he took over . . . the only players from that roster than have been significant NHL contributors since Burke took over are Grabovski, Kulemin (if he can return to form), Schenn, Kaberle and Antropov. The 4 goaltenders that split the Leafs net that season have seen a total of 3 NHL games in the last 2 NHL seasons - all from Martin Gerber - and all of 9 since being purged from the Leafs' organization. Of the players Burke moved out, only Antropov has put up a 20 goal season or a 40+ point season since leaving the team. And, the only notable players to come through the farm system onto other NHL rosters - Stalberg, Stralman and Tlusty. Heck, even the Leafs only really have Reimer, Gunnarsson and Frattin to show for what was in the system at the time (Holzer and Komarov may be added to the list, but, we're talking about guys who are likely to be a bottom pairing defenceman and a 4th line forward, respectively).
When Burke came in, there wasn't much to work with. JFJ left things in a mess, with no real high level prospects and an older roster, and Fletcher came in and muddied the situation in his brief time in charge. While I'll agree that the results Burke has seen have been underwhelming, I'm not sure I'd agree about what he's built (in an overall sense). The current roster is more talented, the farm system appears to be better and the team appears to be on the upswing. There are bright spots on the team now - that's not something I'm sure could be said before Burke took over.
#1PilarFan
New member
Is that really the case though? The Leafs are 10th in the league in salary cap payroll. Now granted, they haven't yet maxed out their capspace with this mediocre team, but they're not in an particularly beneficial position. After this season, the Leafs lose some contracts, but their highest paid players are all with the team until 2014-15. Barring adding any more long term deals, the Leafs will have substantial capspace. They'll also have many, many, many holes to fill.drummond said:
Take it from a Raptors fan. Capspace is overrated. Winning is not.
#1PilarFan
New member
In fairness to Burke, I do think he's a far better GM than JFJ.bustaheims said:
bustaheims
Active member
#1PilarFan said:
Sure, but, let's be honest, that's not saying much. JFJ dug this team a pretty deep hole - one that takes a fair amount of time for them to really dig themselves out of and stay out of. There was no quick fix for this team - not unless they wanted to end up right back where they started after a handful of modestly successful but ultimately failed seasons (and, by that, I mean, in all likelihood, some playoff wins but no Cups). Burke came into a real tough situation, and, while his immediate results have obviously not been awe-inspiring, I feel like he's brought back a sense of hope for the future that had been severely lacking for a long time.
In terms of salary cap space, I think some people might overestimate the "great" position the leafs are in and their ability to pillage other teams for good high-salary players. According to cap geek, the leafs have the 10th highest payroll next year at $62 million with 21 players signed. Many teams such as Detroit, Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, LA, would appear to be in just as good a position. So if a team needs to sell a good player and the leafs are able to fit that player under the cap then so can a bunch of other teams that don't have any particular financial concerns. If (big if) the CBA allows cap-free buyouts then the leafs could buy out komisarek and Lombardi and connolly, say, and clear an extra $11 million. So if the cap were to go down to $62 and those kinds of buyouts were allowed and the leafs ownership would agree to such a financial outlay and there is no salary rollback (meaning other teams get no cap hit break) and you can identify a top center on a cap-heavy team that would absolutely need to be traded because they can't also engage in buyouts (which is something I haven't tried to do yet) then the leafs might be in a good position. It is probably too many ifs.
Having said that, just for the sake of fun, it would be interesting to try to identify a specific team and player (other than Luongo) that the Leafs might exploit if everything were to go perfectly.
Having said that, just for the sake of fun, it would be interesting to try to identify a specific team and player (other than Luongo) that the Leafs might exploit if everything were to go perfectly.
Kin
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
I think the best rebuttal to that line of thinking was penned by David Mamet and delivered by Alec Baldwin:
The Art of Selling
Kin
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
But I think what PF is saying holds quite a bit of merit. Yeah, you can look at the 07-08 team as being terrible and that's true but I think it's just as fair to look at it as a blank canvas. There wasn't anything in the way of big contracts aside from Kubina/Kabs/Blake.
Whoever took over that team was going to get to build whatever the heck they wanted. They had the resources and nothing in the way of a serious albatross.
#1PilarFan
New member
bustaheims said:
Is there hope though? I mean, we're looking at a terribly disenchanted fanbase of a team whose struggles have no end in sight. The decline in interest is palpable.
Is there hope for the future? The best player in the draft aside, do the Leafs have any big time prospects? Who is going to improve this team from within? Is Kadri any better than Tlusty? Holzer any better than Gunnarsson? Would you rather pay Jason Blake over 4m, or Komisarek?
Obviously, there was no quick fix (though a few years ago, I think Burke may have disagreed with you) but does that make the lack of success acceptable?
It's not enough for me to watch an 80 point team year after year and hope that the future is better. And it shouldn't be enough for any of you. I want you to get mad.
OldTimeHockey said:
Then Burke should not have given an interview where he so emphatically stated that it was very unlikely that the team he had in place in June would be the one that would take the ice in October.
But that is Burke's MO. He likes to oversell and under deliver. He has done this since the beginning and he continues to do it now.
Like many people I would have been much happier with him giving an honest assessment of the team when he came in and again now as well. I do not expect him to say that the Leafs suck or that it is unlikely that they will make the playoffs until 2014, but I also don't want him to be so puffed up about where they are at either.
maplesyrup
New member
bustaheims said:
Good post... Karma sent your way. 8)
#1PilarFan
New member
I like to think I'm a patient guy. I am, after all, a Toronto sports fan. If say, Burke's teams have been getting better steadily, I'd be ok with that. The problem is that the results haven't improved. For all his moves and bluster, he's been throwing out 80 point teams year after year. And frankly, I don't see how the current team will be any better.drummond said:
I think Fanatic touched on something important too; for the people who have soured on Burke, it's because i) he has so far shown more style than substance and ii) he is now coming off as condescending to what I happen to believe is one of the smartest and best informed fanbases around. We know Rielly isn't the best player in the draft. So why tell us he was? This isn't a one-time thing either, it's indicative of Burke's penchant for spewing nonsense and expecting us to accept it. So, we have a GM whose on-ice success is non-existent and to make matters worse he seems to believe we're a bunch of ill-informed yokels who haven't followed hockey religiously for our entire lives.
Fanatic said:
It seems very early to level this criticism. It does seem likely that whatever happens with the new CBA, it will cause some degree of upheaval and player movement. So I have no particular reason to object to Burke's comment at this point. If the CBA gets ratified and there is still no substantial player movement after that happens then I still wouldn't object to Burke's comment because it would seem that that scenario would be unexpected. A good time to object would be if, after the CBA is resolved, there is a flurry of top-end players moved, including centers but Burke isn't involved.
This year's UFA crop just didn't have what Toronto needed so I didn't expect July 1 to be the time he'd make his moves. I do wish that there was a way that Kulemin and Kadri could have been converted in to Mike Richards or Jeff Carter. That seems to have been a rare opportunity to grab a top center ... though it also may be the case that Philly just wasn't going to do that kind of deal with us. My next hope (though I recognize the probability is likely minuscule) is get Getzlaf as a UFA. I do think Toronto needs an injection of a top-10 talent at the top to make much progress towards being a contender.