Idiocracy

[Bender]

It tells nothing that I think everyone has Rights.  This isn't the 40's, these are idiots that think they are better than others, they have done nothing to act on those thoughts like the folks of the German Nazis.  I can easily look at this mess from both sides and don't get pidgeonholed because of one group's ideology. And what makes me a Conservative?? 

I was talking about their existence and beliefs.

Which, again, are by nature violent. Nazism is, by definition, aligning yourself with the belief that racial and ethnic minorities do not have human rights. There is no moral equivalence in a willingness to stand up to people like that. You cannot be a good person and a Nazi(see all Nazis ever). You can, however, be a good person and violent towards Nazis(see soldiers in WW2).

It's really telling that you feel this compelling need to assign blame to both sides. It used to be that Conservatives didn't feel as though the people holding the poles up there were on their side.

I recently read an excerpt from the book They Thought They Were Free. I think I'm going to pick it up now so I don't get complacent about the percolation of hatred in our society.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Hey now, this is not a Conservative thing. I can be less govt and not agree with a bunch of crap that's coincidentally tied to the majority of Conservatives. I don't want Wynne paying people with tax money to make sure I make a wise choice for my kid's daycare, that doesn't mean I like guns and religion and racism and crap too. 

I can't tell to what extent this is sarcasm or not but I agree. There are lots of conservatives, big and small c, who didn't feel the need to equivocate their criticism and condemnation of a march of white supremacists or draw lines between Nazis and their enemies. Here's Marco Rubio, a guy I disagree with politically on just about everything besides this:

[tweet]897577018451267584[/tweet]

[tweet]897577823820537856[/tweet]

Conservatives/Liberals/Whatever, they all died on the beaches at Normandy because they knew stopping the spread of that inherently vile ideology needed to be stopped no matter what.

I was serious, but tried to inject some humour. Political mindsets tend to get tied up with moral ideologies. Hate and racism has nothing directly to do with Conservative thinking in my mind. But somehow it frequently gets tied together. People have the right to preach right wing whatever, that just doesn't include racism and hatred because that's not a political ideology, it's immoral garbage. Not that I think you disagree with any of this.

 

[Bates]

How would you explain Antifa's violence in places like Berkeley or Seattle?  Who were they doing the right thing against there?  In this situation they just happened to be the preferred thugs.

The other side isn't exactly you and I against those who want to exterminate Black People no matter how much you want to make it that simple.

Trust me, that's becoming abundantly clear.

 

[Bender]

The other side isn't exactly you and I against those who want to exterminate Black People no matter how much you want to make it that simple.  Antifa is on the  terrorist watch group, they are all about anarchy.  I believe the best approach is to allow the Nazis the Right to gather, gain intelligence on them, and when they cross the line prosecute them to the fullest extent of the Law. 

I can easily look at this mess from both sides and don't get pidgeonholed because of one group's ideology.

On one side are Nazis. The other side are people who want to stop Nazis. You need to reconcile how much time you want to give to each.

So much to unpack in such a little post but I really don't have the time.

1) You really don't know how systemic issues work if you will leave it up to law enforcement. Residents of Charlottesville didn't want the protest to take place for fear of violence in Charlottesville. It happened anyway, and a woman is dead. That's simply not good enough. You can go on and on with every example of systemic police violence. You can't leave this unchallenged and let the state deal with it - the state is not an objective observer in the US at this point (depending on the state/area).

2) Not everyone who opposed neo nazis in Charlottesville were Antifa. You are out of your mind if you think it was far left vs far right. It was far right vs literally everybody else.

3) Equating antifa and neo nazis is a false equivalency: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/

4) This was not in this post but I don't understand why politics of conservatism vs liberalism has to do with, you know, opposing nazis. I think lots of people of every political affiliation, race, creed, gender can get behind standing up to racist and bigoted bullshit. 

 

[louisstamos]

I was serious, but tried to inject some humour. Political mindsets tend to get tied up with moral ideologies. Hate and racism has nothing directly to do with Conservative thinking in my mind. But somehow it frequently gets tied together. People have the right to preach right wing whatever, that just doesn't include racism and hatred because that's not a political ideology, it's immoral garbage. Not that I think you disagree with any of this.

It is kind of funny, though, that these modern day Nazi's claim to be hardline (small c) conservatives, and hate communism - yet the Nazi movement in of itself was a form of national socialism (hence the Nazi abbrevation).  Essentially, they're saying that "we hate everything about communism...except the hating Jews part - that one we can get behind."

...maybe funny isn't the right word to use.

 

[Kin]

In this situation they just happened to be the preferred thugs.

Yes. They have managed to clear my low bar of being clearly better than Nazis and Klansmen.

I think sometimes fringe-groups on the Left can occasionally equate fairly standard Government policy with fascism. When they do, I think they're wrong albeit not coming from a terribly bad place. I do not, however, allow that to confuse my moral barometer when they're clashing with actual fascists. The most peaceful Nazi in the entire world is still a horrible person coming from a terrible place.

Remember, contrary to your reductive position that "we" fought the "wars" for "freedom" that by far the country that suffered the most at the hands of the Nazi army was the USSR who, I think it can be fairly said, were not motivated at a state level by a love for individual freedom. This isn't some sort of impossible twist of moral logic. Stalin = bad. Fighting Nazis = still good.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I was serious, but tried to inject some humour. Political mindsets tend to get tied up with moral ideologies. Hate and racism has nothing directly to do with Conservative thinking in my mind. But somehow it frequently gets tied together. People have the right to preach right wing whatever, that just doesn't include racism and hatred because that's not a political ideology, it's immoral garbage. Not that I think you disagree with any of this.

It is kind of funny, though, that these modern day Nazi's claim to be hardline (small c) conservatives, and hate communism - yet the Nazi movement in of itself was a form of national socialism (hence the Nazi abbrevation).  Essentially, they're saying that "we hate everything about communism...except the hating Jews part - that one we can get behind."

...maybe funny isn't the right word to use.

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

 

[Bender]

Hey now, this is not a Conservative thing. I can be less govt and not agree with a bunch of crap that's coincidentally tied to the majority of Conservatives. I don't want Wynne paying people with tax money to make sure I make a wise choice for my kid's daycare, that doesn't mean I like guns and religion and racism and crap too. 

I think it's because the political spectrum is so broad and the right has moved so far right in recent years and so much louder that you can't help but think of George W, the Republican Party, Trump etc. within a larger Conservative context.

I think people can be a lot of things at once and they aren't contradictory. (As an aside, just thinking out loud here) Why do people have to be hardline about everything within an ideology? That makes no sense to me. Why not be more of a mosaic, shifting based on the question at hand?

 

[Bender]

I was serious, but tried to inject some humour. Political mindsets tend to get tied up with moral ideologies. Hate and racism has nothing directly to do with Conservative thinking in my mind. But somehow it frequently gets tied together. People have the right to preach right wing whatever, that just doesn't include racism and hatred because that's not a political ideology, it's immoral garbage. Not that I think you disagree with any of this.

It is kind of funny, though, that these modern day Nazi's claim to be hardline (small c) conservatives, and hate communism - yet the Nazi movement in of itself was a form of national socialism (hence the Nazi abbrevation).  Essentially, they're saying that "we hate everything about communism...except the hating Jews part - that one we can get behind."

...maybe funny isn't the right word to use.

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

On the other hand it's like saying people who are Anarchists aren't left on the political spectrum. Groups that want to affect social and political change absolutely fall under a political spectrum and the neo-nazis are no different. I find it slightly comical that you used the term "fake news."

 

[Kin]

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

The problem with that interpretation though is that pretty clearly it's a movement that's gained traction within the GOP. I don't really think you can extricate this current rise of White Supremacists from the general problems the Right in the United States has had with Racial politics and specifically the election of Trump. That there are "moderate" Republicans who simply want to limit things to restrictive voting laws and mass for-profit incarceration doesn't de-link the two.

 

[Kin]

Why do people have to be hardline about everything within an ideology? That makes no sense to me. Why not be more of a mosaic, shifting based on the question at hand?

My guess is that 99% of people are that way. I'm not certainly not hardline left on everything. We just get a distorted picture of most people because hardliners tend to yell loudest.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I was serious, but tried to inject some humour. Political mindsets tend to get tied up with moral ideologies. Hate and racism has nothing directly to do with Conservative thinking in my mind. But somehow it frequently gets tied together. People have the right to preach right wing whatever, that just doesn't include racism and hatred because that's not a political ideology, it's immoral garbage. Not that I think you disagree with any of this.

It is kind of funny, though, that these modern day Nazi's claim to be hardline (small c) conservatives, and hate communism - yet the Nazi movement in of itself was a form of national socialism (hence the Nazi abbrevation).  Essentially, they're saying that "we hate everything about communism...except the hating Jews part - that one we can get behind."

...maybe funny isn't the right word to use.

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

On the other hand it's like saying people who are Anarchists aren't left on the political spectrum. Groups that want to affect social and political change absolutely fall under a political spectrum and the neo-nazis are no different. I find it slightly comical that you used the term "fake news."

An official group may have political thoughts and aspirations as well as racist ones, so 'Neo-Nazies' is a far right group, sure. I mean to say that being racist on it's own doesn't fit into the political spectrum. I could say I'm right wing I want lower taxes, fewer govt funded projects, and all of a certain group of people to die. Two out of three are right wing ideologies, the other is akin to saying we pick blue as our party colour. Yes Conservatives, in Canada, have blue in their logo, but that doesn't make the colour blue have a place in the political spectrum.

Anarchy is an actual political ideology, no govt. I just reject the idea that racism is, and if it is, can it be an off shoot and not 'right'? I would like that, being medium right wing myself.

And I guess killing all of one race is technically a social change, but still...

Fake news is one my top 5 current favorite terms.  ;D Gotta have some humour in these conversations!

 

[Bill_Berg]

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

The problem with that interpretation though is that pretty clearly it's a movement that's gained traction within the GOP. I don't really think you can extricate this current rise of White Supremacists from the general problems the Right in the United States has had with Racial politics and specifically the election of Trump. That there are "moderate" Republicans who simply want to limit things to restrictive voting laws and mass for-profit incarceration doesn't de-link the two.

Sure, I suppose I don't mean to claim the link isn't there, more that it shouldn't be there. Racism hurts the non-racist ideologies of the right wing unfairly. Perhaps it's their own fault, but ideas should be crushed by rational thinking, not associations with other horrible ideas. But I realize the world in practical terms isn't always like that, or even often like that.

 

[louisstamos]

It's capital H 'Ha' funny. I've never made that connection, but it did make me lol, and it fits my point exactly. The whole political aspect to these people is fake news. They aren't alt right, far right, Conservatives or anything like that, or if they are it has as much to do with their racist views as whether or not they have hemorrhoids.

The problem with that interpretation though is that pretty clearly it's a movement that's gained traction within the GOP. I don't really think you can extricate this current rise of White Supremacists from the general problems the Right in the United States has had with Racial politics and specifically the election of Trump. That there are "moderate" Republicans who simply want to limit things to restrictive voting laws and mass for-profit incarceration doesn't de-link the two.

You're absolutely right, and I think therein lies the difference between ideology and party platform, and I think it even highlights kind of the evolving nature of the party platform, and the cross between "fiscal" and "social" aspects of the spectrum.  The alt-right defenders since Saturday have been posting things like "the KKK was started by a democrat" and "The Republicans were the party of Lincoln."  And those things are true - but it began turning in the 1950s (and especially in the 1960s when Kennedy really started embracing civil rights) - those who were democrats but didn't believe in civil rights for minorities "crossed the aisle", so to speak, and joined the Republican Party.  The GOP then started to alter their political platform based on the people who were joining their party, and that's still reflected today.

I think a lot of the people who are fiscal conservative but social liberal are more and more starting to identify as Libertarian, but there just aren't very many of them compared to "Republicans."  And I think so many people who are Republicans are social conservatives more than anything else, but that's what they prioritize. i.e: those who say the Republican party are the party of God.  I'm a Christian as well, and I can say the Republican's fiscal agenda is not very Christ-like, and is quite honestly counterproductive and damaging to the communities voting for them, but a lot of those social-conservatives don't care.

 

[Kin]

Sure, I suppose I don't mean to claim the link isn't there, more that it shouldn't be there. Racism hurts the non-racist ideologies of the right wing unfairly. Perhaps it's their own fault, but ideas should be crushed by rational thinking, not associations with other horrible ideas. But I realize the world in practical terms isn't always like that, or even often like that.

Well, another way to look at it is the idea of Classical Conservatism vs. a modern interpretation. Conservatism, in the Burke-sense, is about maintaining a status quo and traditional roles within society. Racism is an old part of our thinking so moving beyond and it and wanting to get rid of some of the entrenched power structures that propagate racism on a systemic level by definition would require progressive change which, again, is antithetical to a lot of the ideas of social Conservatism.

And, you know, I think another important point here is not to think of Racism as some sort of internal binary where either someone is racist, and therefore might have been marching on Charlottesville with a lit torch, or they 100% aren't and are good people. Racism is a complex thing that can infect our thinking in ways we don't realize and lots of Conservative(again, classical) thoughts aren't necessarily driven by racial animus but can nevertheless have the effect of propping up some of the systems and structures that maintain the lingering effects of a time when Racism was official policy.

 

[Kin]

I think a lot of the people who are fiscal conservative but social liberal are more and more starting to identify as Libertarian, but there just aren't very many of them compared to "Republicans."  And I think so many people who are Republicans are social conservatives more than anything else, but that's what they prioritize. i.e: those who say the Republican party are the party of God.  I'm a Christian as well, and I can say the Republican's fiscal agenda is not very Christ-like, and is quite honestly counterproductive and damaging to the communities voting for them, but a lot of those social-conservatives don't care.

I think that's all true but I think it raises a very interesting point about what it means to be fiscally or economically conservative these days. I mean, I'm sure most Donald Trump voters in the States or UKIP voters in the UK would describe themselves as Fiscal conservatives and yet Trump and Brexit won with a message of economic populism that really was as much about rejecting Neoliberalism and flirting with protectionism.

 

[bustaheims]

The other side isn't exactly you and I against those who want to exterminate Black People no matter how much you want to make it that simple.  Antifa is on the  terrorist watch group, they are all about anarchy.  I believe the best approach is to allow the Nazis the Right to gather, gain intelligence on them, and when they cross the line prosecute them to the fullest extent of the Law.

The problem is, with groups like this, they tend to equate not being met with violent resistance to acceptance of their presence - and, once they feel their presence is accepted, they start to actively attempt to take over, which inevitably leads to violence, death, etc.

A few month ago, I read a very enlightening article about a reformed Neo-Nazi on how he and his brethren approached the punk scene, how they tried to take control, and how the only reasons they failed in places was because of violent resistance. The only thing these people really know is force. You can't count on the legal system to fix them - they've already shown an inability to deal with them, and, the prison system really just serves to strengthen their ranks. When white supremacists and Neo-Nazis are emboldened to the point where they're comfortable showing their faces and holding large scale demonstrations, the tide needs to stopped forcefully and emphatically, and in a way that, at the very least, pushes these morally repugnant troglodytes back to the fringes where they belong. 

 

[Bill_Berg]

Sure, I suppose I don't mean to claim the link isn't there, more that it shouldn't be there. Racism hurts the non-racist ideologies of the right wing unfairly. Perhaps it's their own fault, but ideas should be crushed by rational thinking, not associations with other horrible ideas. But I realize the world in practical terms isn't always like that, or even often like that.

Well, another way to look at it is the idea of Classical Conservatism vs. a modern interpretation. Conservatism, in the Burke-sense, is about maintaining a status quo and traditional roles within society. Racism is an old part of our thinking so moving beyond and it and wanting to get rid of some of the entrenched power structures that propagate racism on a systemic level by definition would require progressive change which, again, is antithetical to a lot of the ideas of social Conservatism.

And, you know, I think another important point here is not to think of Racism as some sort of internal binary where either someone is racist, and therefore might have been marching on Charlottesville with a lit torch, or they 100% aren't and are good people. Racism is a complex thing that can infect our thinking in ways we don't realize and lots of Conservative(again, classical) thoughts aren't necessarily driven by racial animus but can nevertheless have the effect of propping up some of the systems and structures that maintain the lingering effects of a time when Racism was official policy.

I know Conservatives are more likely to be conservative in general, although I don't know if that applies to things like denouncing extreme racism, at least not until yesterday.

Totally agree that it's more nuanced than I'm making it out to be. And that it can have a subtle or not so subtle effect on policy decisions.

 

[rdowdall]

I wonder if George W Bush JR.  would have responded to this incident?

 

[Bill_Berg]

I wonder of George W Bush JR.  would have responded to this incident?

He would have said something stupid and the world would have shaken it's head, and it would have been equivalent of the 50th worse thing Trump has said on any given day since he became president.