Is Nonis pulling these strings?

[Big Daddy]

Your telling me that in a matter of days Nonis was able to get more for Winnick than Jagr got and Clarkson is gone.  Wow. Actual cap space!!!  What will he do next or is this all the Shanaplan?

 

[Kin]

It just feeds into what I've said for many years. It's a little unfair to judge a GM when they're working from a crappy "retool not rebuild" or "build while competing" or whatever sort of plan. Tearing down a team isn't the hardest thing in the world.

 

[KW Sluggo]

Your telling me that in a matter of days Nonis was able to get more for Winnick than Jagr got and Clarkson is gone.  Wow. Actual cap space!!!  What will he do next or is this all the Shanaplan?

Unbelievable, n'est-ce pas?

I am just amazed at the Clarkson deal.

All Nonis can do to top this is to wine the draft lottery.

 

[moon111]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

 

[Al14]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

Well, we're far from being one point shy of making the playoffs.  I hope for the 4th or 5th pick overall now, and, if we're really lucky, 1st overall if we win the lottery.

The tank is strong! 

 

[moon111]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

Well, we're far from being one point shy of making the playoffs.  I hope for the 4th or 5th pick overall now, and, if we're really lucky, 1st overall if we win the lottery.

The tank is strong!

I think my entire life of being a pessimist stems from being a Leaf's fan.

 

[Al14]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

Well, we're far from being one point shy of making the playoffs.  I hope for the 4th or 5th pick overall now, and, if we're really lucky, 1st overall if we win the lottery.

The tank is strong!

I think my entire life of being a pessimist stems from being a Leaf's fan.

Ah, maybe now I have an explanation for my pessimism!  Thanks. 

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

Well, we're far from being one point shy of making the playoffs.  I hope for the 4th or 5th pick overall now, and, if we're really lucky, 1st overall if we win the lottery.

The tank is strong!

I think my entire life of being a pessimist stems from being a Leaf's fan.

I usually blame my parents for that sort of thing, but you may be on to something.

 

[Al14]

I wasn't going to mention the draft lottery.  Didn't want to curse it.  Now Leafs will be one point shy of making the playoffs.

Well, we're far from being one point shy of making the playoffs.  I hope for the 4th or 5th pick overall now, and, if we're really lucky, 1st overall if we win the lottery.

The tank is strong!

I think my entire life of being a pessimist stems from being a Leaf's fan.

I usually blame my parents for that sort of thing, but you may be on to something.

Oh, he is on to something for sure.  I now feel that my pessimism is a direct result of being a Leafs fan! 

 

[rdowdall]

Who would want Chirelli if he was let go by Boston?  I mean who better to trade Kessel.

 

[Al14]

Who would want Chirelli if he was let go by Boston?  I mean who better to trade Kessel.

I'm not sure Chiarelli would be someone of interest to Shanahan.  If, and when, he gets fired in Boston, I could see him back in Ottawa to replace Murray.

Just a guess, as I have no insider information to support anything!  LOL

 

[herman]

From Leafs Notebook March 25

One of the main questions in Toronto down the stretch has been whether or not Dave Nonis will be General Manager of the team moving forward.

It is a reasonable question, but perhaps it is not the right one.

More appropriately, is this a position that anyone in the league with experience will actually covet?

There are the obvious reasons one can think of as to why an experienced manager would not want to take control of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The team is lousy, they have an admittedly shallow prospect pool, the team is riddled with controversy and has a poor relationship with the media, and they are years away from contention.

Of course, that can all be quickly countered by someone with a big enough ego to think they can be that guy (or girl) to come into Toronto and lead them to the Promised Land. You don?t get a job as a General Manager without some sort of ego and self-conviction, so it is easy to see how someone can look past everything just listed.

One thing a General Manager worth their salt won?t be able to look past? Not being able to bring in their team of executives.

That is not to say there would not be room for a potentially new General Manager to bring in a few of his own coworkers, but Brendan Shanahan has essentially hired his team. He brought in Brandon Pridham to be his capologist, Kyle Dubas to be his assistant General Manager team, an accompanying analytics team, and a director of player personnel who will also oversee scouting in Mark Hunter.

What experienced manager worth their salt is going to want to step into a situation where their front office team has been picked for them?

It was obvious that Shanahan was completely in charge when they traded for Roman Polak and he told reporters that he made calls on the player before acquiring him. It was cemented when he was the one, not Dave Nonis, that recruited Casey Bailey.

While they may in fact end up firing Dave Nonis, it is hard to imagine a reputable GM chomping at the bit to take over this team.

Where there may be leverage to be used here, however, is in bringing in a top end coach. It is no secret that Mike Babcock, for example, covets more power in decision making when it comes to player personnel. In Toronto, he could get that opportunity. That bargaining chip can be used for any coach with some reputability, presumably.

Otherwise, the current management team appears to be the team going forward, with or without Nonis.

I have similar thoughts. They already have their GM-by-committee with the tri/quadumvirate of Nonis (talker), Dubas/Hunter (identifier), Pridham (numberer). Shanahan is pretty hands on with recruiting the players he believes in and has a great deal of NHL clout, so eventually Nonis could be released, but at this point I think he provides more value than harm.

 

[cw]

From Leafs Notebook March 25

One of the main questions in Toronto down the stretch has been whether or not Dave Nonis will be General Manager of the team moving forward.

It is a reasonable question, but perhaps it is not the right one.

More appropriately, is this a position that anyone in the league with experience will actually covet?

There are the obvious reasons one can think of as to why an experienced manager would not want to take control of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The team is lousy, they have an admittedly shallow prospect pool, the team is riddled with controversy and has a poor relationship with the media, and they are years away from contention.

Of course, that can all be quickly countered by someone with a big enough ego to think they can be that guy (or girl) to come into Toronto and lead them to the Promised Land. You don?t get a job as a General Manager without some sort of ego and self-conviction, so it is easy to see how someone can look past everything just listed.

One thing a General Manager worth their salt won?t be able to look past? Not being able to bring in their team of executives.

That is not to say there would not be room for a potentially new General Manager to bring in a few of his own coworkers, but Brendan Shanahan has essentially hired his team. He brought in Brandon Pridham to be his capologist, Kyle Dubas to be his assistant General Manager team, an accompanying analytics team, and a director of player personnel who will also oversee scouting in Mark Hunter.

What experienced manager worth their salt is going to want to step into a situation where their front office team has been picked for them?

It was obvious that Shanahan was completely in charge when they traded for Roman Polak and he told reporters that he made calls on the player before acquiring him. It was cemented when he was the one, not Dave Nonis, that recruited Casey Bailey.

While they may in fact end up firing Dave Nonis, it is hard to imagine a reputable GM chomping at the bit to take over this team.

Where there may be leverage to be used here, however, is in bringing in a top end coach. It is no secret that Mike Babcock, for example, covets more power in decision making when it comes to player personnel. In Toronto, he could get that opportunity. That bargaining chip can be used for any coach with some reputability, presumably.

Otherwise, the current management team appears to be the team going forward, with or without Nonis.

I have similar thoughts. They already have their GM-by-committee with the tri/quadumvirate of Nonis (talker), Dubas/Hunter (identifier), Pridham (numberer). Shanahan is pretty hands on with recruiting the players he believes in and has a great deal of NHL clout, so eventually Nonis could be released, but at this point I think he provides more value than harm.

They could do what Colorado did with Sakic. Sakic was hired as an executive VP. Subsequently, they named him GM and made their current GM an assistant.

In Toronto, as GM, Shanahan could do that with Nonis or show him the door and get another assistant GM.

I would agree that with what has gone on, no self respecting GM would come to Toronto unless things changed and they got significant autonomy.

I would have preferred Shanahan remain president, step back and then he could get a couple of cycles of GMs (kind of like a GM gets more than one coach) to implement the rebuild approach. It might take more than one in this media market.

That doesn't appear to be in the cards. Shanahan's got his fingerprints all over the GM function. Nonis is a figurehead in that role right now - he's really been demoted to assistant GM already. The only question in my mind is will they make him walk the plank this spring? I think the MLSE board will want to hold someone accountable for this debacle.

 

[Highlander]

call it a debacle?  This was part of the plan, maybe not to tank this much but it was the start of the rebuild. Shanaplan is the head of the Leafs and just brought in by the brass to right this ship. Nonis will probably stay albeit as a puppet for the others, but if Babcock comes in, he will be gone.

 

[Joe S.]

From Leafs Notebook March 25

More appropriately, is this a position that anyone in the league with experience will actually covet?

That's ridiculous. I don't care what the media says of this team, they would not have any trouble hiring whoever they wanted if that person was available. And I believe that for any team in the NHL. There are only 30 jobs out there - the can't be THAT picky.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

call it a debacle?  This was part of the plan, maybe not to tank this much but it was the start of the rebuild. Shanaplan is the head of the Leafs and just brought in by the brass to right this ship. Nonis will probably stay albeit as a puppet for the others, but if Babcock comes in, he will be gone.

I think the biggest issue for Nonis is what cw brought up before.  Namely, going to the board to get approval to sign a bunch of big $$, long-term contracts, and then hitting them up again a couple years later to say please can I get rid of them.  That and the whole David Clarkson thing.  Nonis did manage to move him, but still had to go to the board and say 'hey, remember those Clarkson dollars?  Would you mind eating them now while getting nothing in return?"

I just can't see Shanahan asking Nonis to stick around, and I certainly can't seeing the big bosses wanting him around.

 

[Kin]

I think the biggest issue for Nonis is what cw brought up before.  Namely, going to the board to get approval to sign a bunch of big $$, long-term contracts, and then hitting them up again a couple years later to say please can I get rid of them.

Do you really think that's how this team operates? That the GM doesn't just have a budget and can operate with relative freedom within that budget but, rather, he has to go to the board and ask if he can use his available cap dollars to sign a particular free agent? 

And then he has to ask permission to "get rid of them" via trade? If that's really the way things are going at MLSE I think there are deeper problems than just who the GM is.

That and the whole David Clarkson thing.  Nonis did manage to move him, but still had to go to the board and say 'hey, remember those Clarkson dollars?  Would you mind eating them now while getting nothing in return?"

Again, why would that be so bad? Until Horton's contract is put on LTIR so the Leafs can exceed the cap, the difference between paying Horton and paying Clarkson, financially, is meaningless to the board.

It seems to sort of contradict the whole premise to begin with. On the one hand, you're saying Nonis has to go to the board to get permission to spend every dollar but then the actual "eating" of Horton's contract doesn't take place until they're asked to spend over the cap which they haven't done yet(and, let's be real, the idea that the MLSE board would be hardpressed to approve a budget 5 million over the cap is nonsense to begin with).

I mean, aside from the likelihood that it's Shanahan dealing with the board as opposed to Nonis these days, why do we care what MLSE thinks about hockey decisions in the first place?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's ridiculous. I don't care what the media says of this team, they would not have any trouble hiring whoever they wanted if that person was available. And I believe that for any team in the NHL. There are only 30 jobs out there - the can't be THAT picky.

To me, I think the bigger issue that question raised is would an established GM want to come into a situation where he isn't picking his the rest of his management team. Dubas/Hunter/Pridham are Shanahan hires, they're not going anywhere. Would somebody want to come into a situation sandwiched between those 4? Maybe, maybe not, but I think it's a fair question to ask.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I think the biggest issue for Nonis is what cw brought up before.  Namely, going to the board to get approval to sign a bunch of big $$, long-term contracts, and then hitting them up again a couple years later to say please can I get rid of them.

Do you really think that's how this team operates? That the GM doesn't just have a budget and can operate with relative freedom within that budget but, rather, he has to go to the board and ask if he can use his available cap dollars to sign a particular free agent? 

And then he has to ask permission to "get rid of them" via trade? If that's really the way things are going at MLSE I think there are deeper problems than just who the GM is.

That and the whole David Clarkson thing.  Nonis did manage to move him, but still had to go to the board and say 'hey, remember those Clarkson dollars?  Would you mind eating them now while getting nothing in return?"

Again, why would that be so bad? Until Horton's contract is put on LTIR so the Leafs can exceed the cap, the difference between paying Horton and paying Clarkson, financially, is meaningless to the board.

It seems to sort of contradict the whole premise to begin with. On the one hand, you're saying Nonis has to go to the board to get permission to spend every dollar but then the actual "eating" of Horton's contract doesn't take place until they're asked to spend over the cap which they haven't done yet(and, let's be real, the idea that the MLSE board would be hardpressed to approve a budget 5 million over the cap is nonsense to begin with).

I mean, aside from the likelihood that it's Shanahan dealing with the board as opposed to Nonis these days, why do we care what MLSE thinks about hockey decisions in the first place?

To the first point, I really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors with this team.  But I have trouble believing Nonis has/had been given carte blanche to run this team.  If you know something to the contrary, then great.

To the Clarkson thing, who said it was bad?  Personally, I think it's great that Nonis moved him and I did my own little dance when I heard the news.  But I still can't imagine MLSE is happy about it.  They spent money to acquire an asset that would play meaningful minutes for a team on the rise.  Instead, they're paying for a guy to sit at home and not contribute at all.  If that were my business, I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

[Joe S.]

That's ridiculous. I don't care what the media says of this team, they would not have any trouble hiring whoever they wanted if that person was available. And I believe that for any team in the NHL. There are only 30 jobs out there - the can't be THAT picky.

To me, I think the bigger issue that question raised is would an established GM want to come into a situation where he isn't picking his the rest of his management team. Dubas/Hunter/Pridham are Shanahan hires, they're not going anywhere. Would somebody want to come into a situation sandwiched between those 4? Maybe, maybe not, but I think it's a fair question to ask.

Sure - but that's not how it's presented in the original post... but yes, given that structure, that could complicate things... but then again, I think there's enough people in place that they can operate with or without Nonis. There's no need to go get a new GM.