Islanders @ Maple Leafs - Nov. 21st, 7:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[CarltonTheBear]

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New York Islanders
11-8-0, 22 points​

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Toronto Maple Leafs
10-5-4, 24 points​

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[td]Projected
Lineups[/td]
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[td]Parise-Barzal-Wahlstrom
Lee-Nelson-Beauvillier
Bailey-Pageau-Palmieri
Martin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck

Romanov-Dobson
Pelech-Pulock
Aho-Mayfield

Sorokin[/td]
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[td]Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Kerfoot-Tavares-Marner
Engvall-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
ZAR-Kampf-Malgin

Rielly-Benn
Giordano-Holl
Sandin-Liljegren

Murray[/td]
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[td]Scratches[/td]
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Ross Johnston
Robin Salo[/td]
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Wayne Simmonds
Nicholas Robertson[/td]
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[td]Injuries[/td]
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?Kyle Clifford - Shoulder - Injured Reserve
?Jake Muzzin - Neck - Injured Reserve
?TJ Brodie - Oblique - Injured Reserve
?Ilya Samsonov - Knee - Injured Reserve[/td]
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[td]Game notes[/td]
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NYI
?Ilya Sorokin (7-5-0, 2.41 GAA, .925 Sv%) will likely start for the Islanders
?The Islanders are off to a better than expected start to the season as they currently sit 3rd in the Metro division. They have been tapering off a little bit recently though and their underlying numbers aren't particularly strong either so I wouldn't expect them to stay in a playoff position for very long
?The real Mat Barzal might have finally showed up this season again. He has 19 assists and 21 points in 19 games this season. The last time he had a PPG season was in his rookie year

TOR
?Matt Murray (2-1-1, 2.76 GAA, .913 Sv%) will likely start for the Maple Leafs

	Streams
	NHL66 Sportsurge

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[Zee]

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Buffalo Sabres
11-8-0, 22 points​

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Toronto Maple Leafs
10-5-4, 24 points​

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[/tr]

[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr]
[td]                                                                      [/td]
[td]Projected
Lineups[/td]
[td]                                                                      [/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td]Parise-Barzal-Wahlstrom
Lee-Nelson-Beauvillier
Bailey-Pageau-Palmieri
Martin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck

Romanov-Dobson
Pelech-Pulock
Aho-Mayfield

Sorokin[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Kerfoot-Tavares-Marner
Engvall-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
ZAR-Kampf-Malgin

Rielly-Benn
Giordano-Holl
Sandin-Liljegren

Murray[/td]
[/tr]

[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Scratches[/td]
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[/tr]

[tr]
[td]

Ross Johnston
Robin Salo[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]

Wayne Simmonds
Nicholas Robertson[/td]
[/tr]

[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Injuries[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td]

[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]

?Kyle Clifford - Shoulder - Injured Reserve
?Jake Muzzin - Neck - Injured Reserve
?TJ Brodie - Oblique - Injured Reserve
?Ilya Samsonov - Knee - Injured Reserve[/td]
[/tr]

[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Game notes[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]​

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NYI
?Ilya Sorokin (7-5-0, 2.41 GAA, .925 Sv%) will likely start for the Islanders
?The Islanders are off to a better than expected start to the season as they currently sit 3rd in the Metro division. They have been tapering off a little bit recently though and their underlying numbers aren't particularly strong either so I wouldn't expect them to stay in a playoff position for very long
?The real Mat Barzal might have finally showed up this season again. He has 19 assists and 21 points in 19 games this season. The last time he had a PPG season was in his rookie year

TOR
?Matt Murray (2-1-1, 2.76 GAA, .913 Sv%) will likely start for the Maple Leafs

	Streams
	NHL66 Sportsurge

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Lou made the Islanders into the Sabres?​

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[L K]

The Leafs are 5th in the league in points (10th in point percentage).  Not too shabby giving how awful they looked in October.

 

[Frank E]

The Leafs are 5th in the league in points (10th in point percentage).  Not too shabby giving how awful they looked in October.

As the board's Chief Medical Analyst, LK, would you think it prudent to maybe rest Murray tonight?

He played Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, now it's Monday.

 

[louisstamos]

The Leafs are 5th in the league in points (10th in point percentage).  Not too shabby giving how awful they looked in October.

As the board's Chief Medical Analyst, LK, would you think it prudent to maybe rest Murray tonight?

He played Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, now it's Monday.

*looks at schedule*

This would make sense.  Play Kallgren vs the Islanders tonight, and have a rested Murray ready vs New Jersey on Wednesday.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/1594713976432218112

 

[Bill_Berg]

He's a witch!

 

[Frank E]

They should have started Murray.

 

[L K]

The Leafs are 5th in the league in points (10th in point percentage).  Not too shabby giving how awful they looked in October.

As the board's Chief Medical Analyst, LK, would you think it prudent to maybe rest Murray tonight?

He played Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, now it's Monday.

Yeah that would certainly be my approach.  He has chronic injury concerns and just came back.  I don't think the Leafs have made things overly difficult on Murray but he hasn't had quiet games either. 

 

[L K]

Robertson scratched AGAIN........this is unacceptable

 

[herman]

Robertson scratched AGAIN........this is unacceptable

I'm still okay with the scratching so far. I think the forum reboots wiped out my previous treatise as to why this is not the end of the world and should be for the best.

I'll preface by reminding everyone that I am a big fan of Nick Robertson: his motor, his gumption, his scintillating shot, all that. But he is not a perfect player and the team he is trying to break into is in a certain position of their contention cycle with certain requirements of their depth players.

In this contention window, the Leafs coaching staff are rightly prioritizing what's controllable and reliable with their cheapo depth -- PK effort, effective forechecking, defensively useful -- instead of outright scoring. At bottom 6 levels, scoring is inconsistent even with the most talented shooters (see Martin Frk and Mike Hoffman for example); if they were consistent scorers they wouldn't be bottom-sixers or cheapo, right?

If Robertson isn't scoring nearly at will, then is he still useful on the ice in those aforementioned ways? I'd say not at this time. His ice time, outside of that really fun debut (OT winner), has been anodyne at best, and generally possession-negative on a possession-obsessed team. This isn't a slight on Robertson's effort or anything like that, it's just a matter of developing the experience and figuring out his engagement levels. We all know he wants to go full tilt every shift, but that's literally unsustainable even for larger folk like Hyman (who always breaks down at playoff time), let alone someone of Robertson's size and skating style.

So why is NHL healthy scratch better than AHL top minutes? For now, I'd argue it is because the AHL has proven to be too easy for Robertson; that's a recipe for bad habits because he can just get away with slop when playing on the Marlies. Robertson needs to work on developing purpose to his off-puck reads and play. Practice with the Leafs and watching the game flow and example of his peers to start developing and refining that sense is a valid approach.

Surely he's better than Jarnkrok/Engvall/Kerfoot? Maybe at shooting the puck in a vacuum, but the team needs people who can reliably PK and win forechecks regularly. Forechecking:shooting opportunities are like 15:1 per game, and not winning puck battles generally saps shooting opportunities for the whole line.

Is there any hope for him? Yeah, he's still very good and he plays a position of need in the organization (top-6 LW); he recognizes his primary asset is not his shooting but his ability to move his feet and force turnovers and get to space. If the Leafs were on the front end of their rebuild they'd probably be playing him the way the Habs are leaning on Caufield.

 

[Frank E]

I think there's quite a bit of space between leaning on Robertson like the habs do Caufield, and scratching him in four straight games.

 

[herman]

I think there's quite a bit of space between leaning on Robertson like the habs do Caufield, and scratching him in four straight games.

Montreal doesn't have Marner/Nylander, so it's a different ecosystem niche to fill. The Leafs top lines need someone who can soak up the forechecking efforts (Bunting) and make plays. Like it's mentally very easy to see where Knies would fit on this roster, but more difficult to find a spot for Robertson without significant sheltering. Robertson is the better player at the moment to boot.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

I think there's quite a bit of space between leaning on Robertson like the habs do Caufield, and scratching him in four straight games.

Montreal doesn't have Marner/Nylander, so it's a different ecosystem niche to fill. The Leafs top lines need someone who can soak up the forechecking efforts (Bunting) and make plays. Like it's mentally very easy to see where Knies would fit on this roster, but more difficult to find a spot for Robertson without significant sheltering. Robertson is the better player at the moment to boot.

I think the argument is, what exactly is sitting in the press box doing for his development? 

 

[bustaheims]

I think the argument is, what exactly is sitting in the press box doing for his development? 

Which is a valid question, of course, but secondary to what is best for the Leafs performance this season - and, with the inconsistencies in his play and the need for him to round out his game more, I'm not sure Robertson being in the lineup is the right answer most nights.

The Leafs are in a tough spot with him - he's clearly too good for the AHL, but he hasn't shown enough consistency in offensive production to overlook the areas he needs to improve away from the puck to be a full time NHLer.

 

[Frank E]

I think the argument is, what exactly is sitting in the press box doing for his development? 

Which is a valid question, of course, but secondary to what is best for the Leafs performance this season - and, with the inconsistencies in his play and the need for him to round out his game more, I'm not sure Robertson being in the lineup is the right answer most nights.

The Leafs are in a tough spot with him - he's clearly too good for the AHL, but he hasn't shown enough consistency in offensive production to overlook the areas he needs to improve away from the puck to be a full time NHLer.

I'm just having a hard time with this argument...if he's not good enough at things, and those things are keeping him from an NHL spot, then send him to the development league to work on those things.  "The NHL is not a developmental league".

I get that he can pour on points in the A, but he'll also have to be responsible with the puck/learn where to be if he wants the call-up.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm just having a hard time with this argument...if he's not good enough at things, and those things are keeping him from an NHL spot, then send him to the development league to work on those things.  "The NHL is not a developmental league".

I get that he can pour on points in the A, but he'll also have to be responsible with the puck/learn where to be if he wants the call-up.

It's hard to learn when you're already so far ahead of a significant portion of your competition. Too easy to fall back on what worked instead of working on areas that need work. Some players can do it, some can't. Takes a very specific mindset that maybe the Leafs have identified Robertson as not having. That doesn't mean he won't learn, just that getting him to learn it at the AHL level may not be realistic. He needs to go in games, I agree, but the team needs to focus on winning games more than anything else.

Quite honestly, it's looking like there isn't a great "traditional" path forward to developing Robertson. So, the team has to try things that might not make sense to us and might not work, but the binary options we're looking at - play him or send him down - don't appear to be the best approaches.

 

[herman]

I think the argument is, what exactly is sitting in the press box doing for his development? 

Which is a valid question, of course, but secondary to what is best for the Leafs performance this season - and, with the inconsistencies in his play and the need for him to round out his game more, I'm not sure Robertson being in the lineup is the right answer most nights.

The Leafs are in a tough spot with him - he's clearly too good for the AHL, but he hasn't shown enough consistency in offensive production to overlook the areas he needs to improve away from the puck to be a full time NHLer.

This ^

Benefits of NHL pressbox: he's still in practices with the team and the skills coaches, so he's learning at a different pace than he would in the AHL grind. Watching the games from the sky gives a better perspective on off-puck play (forecheck routes, what opposing defenses do on retrievals, NZ puck management). He's up there with Jake Muzzin, who is a pretty good brain to pick on how to annoy/bypass good defensemen. If I was on the coaching staff, he'd have an assignment on looking for system improvements, etc. and identifying actionables for his own game in the role the coaching staff have in mind for him. Oh, and his pay is significantly higher while sitting, than riding the bus for the Marlies.

Eventually, he will play. This isn't a Babcock/Holl situation.

By the by: The Marlies did this at times with players like Mason Marchment, who needed to fix certain things (skating, bulking).

 

[cujo4ever]

GO LEAFS GO!

 

[Arn]

I think the argument is, what exactly is sitting in the press box doing for his development? 

Which is a valid question, of course, but secondary to what is best for the Leafs performance this season - and, with the inconsistencies in his play and the need for him to round out his game more, I'm not sure Robertson being in the lineup is the right answer most nights.

The Leafs are in a tough spot with him - he's clearly too good for the AHL, but he hasn't shown enough consistency in offensive production to overlook the areas he needs to improve away from the puck to be a full time NHLer.

This ^

Benefits of NHL pressbox: he's still in practices with the team and the skills coaches, so he's learning at a different pace than he would in the AHL grind. Watching the games from the sky gives a better perspective on off-puck play (forecheck routes, what opposing defenses do on retrievals, NZ puck management). He's up there with Jake Muzzin, who is a pretty good brain to pick on how to annoy/bypass good defensemen. If I was on the coaching staff, he'd have an assignment on looking for system improvements, etc. and identifying actionables for his own game in the role the coaching staff have in mind for him. Oh, and his pay is significantly higher while sitting, than riding the bus for the Marlies.

Eventually, he will play. This isn't a Babcock/Holl situation.

By the by: The Marlies did this at times with players like Mason Marchment, who needed to fix certain things (skating, bulking).

This is an area where the likes of the football ?loans? system would pay off. He doesn?t quite fit in a contending team?s roster, but too good for the ?lower divisions?. No way of ?loaning? him to someone like a the red wings or Canucks or something for a season where he can play good NHL minutes.