Kessel traded to Penguins

[L K]

Any clarification on whether the Leafs are getting Pittsburgh's 3rd round pick or Devils pick they will be sending for hiring John Hynes as their head coach.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Any clarification on whether the Leafs are getting Pittsburgh's 3rd round pick or Devils pick they will be sending for hiring John Hynes as their head coach.

It's New Jersey's pick, per the release on Pittsburgh's website.

 

[L K]

Kessel's value was at an all-time low. If Dubas can't make this trade without adding the 2nd round pick and without the conditions on the 1st round pick, I go to camp with him.

Give him lots of PP time and wait for the trade deadline.

During which time you risk injury to Kessel, you watch as Kessel invariably gets a year older and, in your best scenario, Kessel does really well and hurts the team's draft position.

No thanks. Leaving aside that big trades like that never get made at the deadline, the likelier scenario is that Kessel has another not-great year and they're right back where they where next year. Even if you don't think that's likely you have to admit it's a possibility and it makes sense for the Leafs to favor getting an extra year of development time with the prospects they could get for him.

Yeah, it's pretty much imperative that the Leafs get one more year of top draft pick.  They could really use a good shot at Auston Matthews or potentially a top defenseman out of the draft to complement Marner and Nylander.  If you have that framework to build around with the plethora of other prospects the team has I would feel comfortable making a slow climb up the standings from that point.

 

[Kin]

Any clarification on whether the Leafs are getting Pittsburgh's 3rd round pick or Devils pick they will be sending for hiring John Hynes as their head coach.

It's New Jersey's pick, per the release on Pittsburgh's website.

Oh, well, then with any luck that pick won't be too far away from Pittsburgh's second rounder. Maybe 10-15 draft spots at best.

 

[Peter D.]

I'm torn on this deal.  At first glance, the return seems underwhelming.  I think trading Kessel in this rebuild was needed, but I'd rather have seen it done last week at the draft.  And since that didn't occur, I would have preferred the Leafs took more time to get this done.  But I can't speak as to what the other offers were or if the Leafs felt this was the best they were going to be offered, both now and later.

Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel.  I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt).  It's not easy finding Kessels and their production. 

 

[Kin]

Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel.  I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt).  It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.

I mean, is this really a situation though where you wouldn't give someone like Babcock the benefit of the doubt? I mean, if he thinks Phaneuf can be an effective player in the system he wants to bring in but not so much Kessel...isn't that why they're paying him the 50 million bucks? To make those calls?

 

[cw]

I won't complain about what they got because I would have taken a 7th to get him out of the locker room.

I'm glad the decisions are being made with less emotion than this.

Naturally, I would have done what they did: put him up for auction and take the best bid. And I would have eaten some salary because I felt as the Pens did that he was overpaid - to help get some talent back. But he wouldn't have played for my team in 2015-16 after what he did this season. I have zero tolerance for quitters.

 

[bustaheims]

Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel.  I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt).  It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.

My guess is that it has a lot to do with value. Kessel's value isn't going to change all that much. Teams know what he is and this past season really wouldn't have had the impact on his value that some people are placing on it. They know he's better than that. They understand what happened with the team last season, and put the majority of the blame for his lower production on that. They also likely don't buy the attitude issues that the fans have. They have access to people who have been directly involved with him and have a much better picture of who he actually is as a person.

With Phaneuf, it's been a couple seasons now where he's been underwhelming and has seen his production dip and his skating ability get called into question. His value is pretty low right now - probably near the bottom of where it could be. A good season under Babcock and he becomes much more tradable and the return on moving him becomes more valuable. He's a tough sell right now. A bad year won't change that much, but a good year definitely could.

 

[Joe S.]

Dealing from a position of weakness and an off year I'm not quite sure what some of you expected.

I'm disappointed that he's gone as I thought later year was just a bad year all around,  and I don't think truly indicative of Kessel's true talent.

But the writing was on the wall and they decided they're moving on from Kessel. I guess they made the best out of a bad situation.

If Kessel doesn't light it up next year in Pittsburgh then there truly was something wrong with him.

 

[ZBBM]

Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel.  I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt).  It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.

I mean, is this really a situation though where you wouldn't give someone like Babcock the benefit of the doubt? I mean, if he thinks Phaneuf can be an effective player in the system he wants to bring in but not so much Kessel...isn't that why they're paying him the 50 million bucks? To make those calls?

And Phaneuf may go yet, as well. But if not it will be interesting to see how Babcock uses him.

For me, it's just the opposite of P's opinion: if only one had to go I much rather wanted it to be Kessel.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel.  I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt).  It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.

It was more about getting rid of Kessel's negative influence on the team. He flat out quit when push came to shove.

Babcock does think Phaneuf can be salvaged, but both he and Shanahan were in agreement that Kessel had to go.

This was more a deal for the locker room than it was for the ice.

 

[disco]

Hey Guys...
At first I was like, hmmm... wished it could've been more. But the more I analyze it, this is what you do in a hard-core rebuild. It's encouraging. Some points from all the Hockey-Central banter:

1) The deal makes the Leafs worse in the short-term - not a problem and helps with pick position. Kessel staying = more goals and wins.
2) It's ALL ABOUT PICKS and PROSPECTS for the next few years. Flip your assets for them and move on. That's a rebuild.
3) In 5-8 years when Leafs are consistantly (hopefully) at the door contending for Cups Phil is on the downside of his career.
4) The $1.25 retained is negligible with the cap consistently rising, and when it's time to pay their high end picks/superstars, it'll all be off the books.

... so I say good job management. Everyone wants a home-run for their traded talent these days, but it's really becoming a rarity.

 

[Peter D.]

I mean, is this really a situation though where you wouldn't give someone like Babcock the benefit of the doubt? I mean, if he thinks Phaneuf can be an effective player in the system he wants to bring in but not so much Kessel...isn't that why they're paying him the 50 million bucks? To make those calls?

Sure.  That's fine and fair. 

As much as I agree with the comments that Kessel quit and the inference that he was a locker room cancer, I don't think Phaneuf has faired much better in his role.  A lot of my opinion has to do with talent, ability and value, and that's why I'd rather have seen if Babcock could work into shaping the 35-goal scorer than the d-man who's been rather ordinary in his time as a Leaf. 

 

[cw]

If they didn't retain salary, then you couldn't expect much for an overpaid player with mental/heart issues. If they retained salary, well, it kind of speaks to how his value in the league has dropped because they certainly shopped him and didn't get that much in return from the highest bidder on his list - a late 1st rounder - no top flight prospect.

Kapanen is a top flight prospect. Harrington is a well regarded 2nd tier prospect. Everyone knew any picks would be late in their respective rounds. The teams drafting at the top aren't trading for Kessel.

Top flight? I don't know about that. Decent prospect? That describes him better to me. He's not a sure fire NHLer - in part due to his size. He didn't crack HF's top 50 prospects. He was about 3rd best Pens prospect and he's about that on the Leafs.

There's a fair chance that they don't get a top 6 forward/top 4 dman in return for Kessel.

 

[Peter D.]

I find it pretty remarkable too that in October there was talk on these boards about Kessel potentially becoming one of the all-time great Leafs and projecting outward that he would hold the goal and points records that Sundin holds.

 

[Fanatic]

So...if I'm not mistaken the tear down so far has yielded:

Brandon Leipsic
Travis Dermott
Kaspari Kapanen
Scott Harrington
Nick Spaling
Jeremy Bracco
Martins Dzierkals
Martin Marincin
A 1st rounder
A 3rd rounder
A 5th rounder
A 6th rounder

Maybe not strictly speaking due to the teardown, but they also landed Zach Hyman (signed a two-year deal today) from Florida for McKegg. A primary reason that they got him was because he thinks he is ready to play in the NHL and Florida didn't agree - the Leafs need people to fill spots so they took him and told him he would play.

 

[Kin]

A lot of my opinion has to do with talent, ability and value, and that's why I'd rather have seen if Babcock could work into shaping the 35-goal scorer than the d-man who's been rather ordinary in his time as a Leaf.

But I think that speaks to what Busta said. Phaneuf is kind of low risk in that, if he has a good year next year, it can really only benefit the Leafs. He's not a good enough player to really change the fortunes of the club.

There's been a few people saying that the Leafs could have held onto Kessel, he could have had a big year that raised his value and they would have made a strong run for the bottom of the league for the draft pick but look at this year's draft. Look at the bottom 6 teams. Did any star forward on those teams have a particularly good year? Anywhere?

Probably the best year out of all of those players was Eberle who had the second worst point and goal totals of his career. Teams don't tank out and get those high picks having top of the league scorers on their rosters unless they're stunningly inept in all other areas like the Oilers have been in recent years. Keeping Kessel and hoping Kessel has a good year and that the Leafs are strong contenders for Matthews...that's really advocating trading Bernier and Kadri and Rielly and Gardiner because otherwise...the team's actually too good for that.

Look at Buffalo's roster this year. That's the aim.

 

[mr grieves]

Kessel's value was at an all-time low. If Dubas can't make this trade without adding the 2nd round pick and without the conditions on the 1st round pick, I go to camp with him.

Give him lots of PP time and wait for the trade deadline.

During which time you risk injury to Kessel, you watch as Kessel invariably gets a year older and, in your best scenario, Kessel does really well and hurts the team's draft position.

And yet -- if Shanahan saying Babcock wants to see some players under him before they move -- this seems to be the plan with Phaneuf, a player who's already older and has had more injuries (tho flukey ones). If this were managing the risk on the probable depreciation of an asset, they'd be consistent. This was, I think, Shanahan's desire to shake up the culture -- which isn't a move that often bespeaks intelligent management. On the other hand, that draft and those UFA signings. So, I dunno -- on balance, we're doing well. But that doesn't make this particular move good.

 

[mr grieves]

If they didn't retain salary, then you couldn't expect much for an overpaid player with mental/heart issues. If they retained salary, well, it kind of speaks to how his value in the league has dropped because they certainly shopped him and didn't get that much in return from the highest bidder on his list - a late 1st rounder - no top flight prospect.

Kapanen is a top flight prospect. Harrington is a well regarded 2nd tier prospect. Everyone knew any picks would be late in their respective rounds. The teams drafting at the top aren't trading for Kessel.

Top flight? I don't know about that. Decent prospect? That describes him better to me. He's not a sure fire NHLer - in part due to his size. He didn't crack HF's top 50 prospects. He was about 3rd best Pens prospect and he's about that on the Leafs.

There's a fair chance that they don't get a top 6 forward/top 4 dman in return for Kessel.

Though I think the implication that Kessel's a schizophrenic with a wonky valve is way off the mark, I'm glad that, though you're in favor of the move, you're not overselling the pieces they got back. In 5 years, Kessel could well still be scoring 70-80 points/season, and the Leafs might have a decent 2nd/3rd liner in Kapanen, a marginal NHLer in the late first, and not had the balls go there way in the Matthews lottery. There's certainly risk in the move.

 

[Kin]

If this were managing the risk on the probable depreciation of an asset, they'd be consistent.

I think they are. I think that if they could have made a deal for Phaneuf that they liked, they would have. They certainly pushed it hard. Going to camp with Phaneuf, I think, is a last resort just like it would have been with Kessel.