Leafs' D is in Better Shape Than We Think?

[TBLeafer]

TB I guess a better way of looking at this is asking which position do you think we're in better shape at/which needs more improvement?

C: Matthews-Nylander-Kadri

D: Rielly-Gardiner-Zaitsev-Carrick

C would be the one I'd look for more immediate improvement.  Too much responsibility at the NHL level to immediately give 2 rookies centers 1 and 2C at the same time.  Babcock has also stated that it would be his preference to start Nylander's NHL career a little more insulated on the wing and go from there.  He didn't have that option with Bozak injured when Nylander got the call.

Until Nylander improves his play away from the puck, that's probably where you'll find him in the fall.

 

[Highlander]

Agreed, I think Nylander will start on the wing and may remain there

 

[Kin]

I totally agree with you here.  Being able to acquire an elite 1C center who is proven without giving up a top draft pick or blue chip prospect is like winning the lottery.  You don't say to the lottery officials and say "Sorry no I won't take this lottery money because I have enough and may have more money as I get raises in the future".  You take it and run away giggling like a school girl.

The problem with that analogy is that it confuses an end result with a process. If you're buying a lottery ticket the aim is to win and have a lot of money which I'm assuming is, within the internal logic of the analogy, also the point of having a job. The end result is achieved with the win. The end result, hopefully, for the Leafs isn't to sign Stamkos but rather to win a Stanley Cup.

Not even the most staunch advocates of signing Stamkos would liken it to getting something for nothing or winning a prize. It's much more in the category of an incredibly expensive purchase. Winning 10 million dollars in the Lottery is only great if you're not spending 10.5 million dollars on tickets.

 

[TBLeafer]

TB I guess a better way of looking at this is asking which position do you think we're in better shape at/which needs more improvement?

C: Matthews-Nylander-Kadri

D: Rielly-Gardiner-Zaitsev-Carrick

Just like in the Stamkos thread, it's hard to say.  They could all flop or they could all be good to great NHLers.  So we can go ahead with the defense we have and continue to stockpile.  Next season is another throw away season so we can let them get out there and learn trial by fire.

I don't think its a throw away season, no matter where they finish.  The new core is being built, not a roster filled with a bunch of stop gaps to trade for assets at the deadline and/or the ejection of a former faulty core.

It will be an important and valuable season of evaluating what we have in our new core pieces obtained, starting with Nylander.

 

[jonlleafs]

TB I guess a better way of looking at this is asking which position do you think we're in better shape at/which needs more improvement?

C: Matthews-Nylander-Kadri

D: Rielly-Gardiner-Zaitsev-Carrick

Just like in the Stamkos thread, it's hard to say.  They could all flop or they could all be good to great NHLers.  So we can go ahead with the defense we have and continue to stockpile.  Next season is another throw away season so we can let them get out there and learn trial by fire.

I don't think its a throw away season, no matter where they finish.  The new core is being built, not a roster filled with a bunch of stop gaps to trade for assets at the deadline and/or the ejection of a former faulty core.

It will be an important and valuable season of evaluating what we have in our new core pieces obtained, starting with Nylander.

When I say throw away I mean that we're not expecting to make the playoffs.  The next season will be about gaining experience for the young kids and evaluating lesser prospects to see what we have. 

So I'm ok with putting all our defensive prospects out there and if they make mistakes, that's fine.  Let them learn they can't be doing what they are doing in the AHL in the NHL etc. 

For me, I don't want to trade away our current prospect pool or assets (unless we are getting a great deal like Schenn for JVR) and let them grow.

 

[TBLeafer]

TB I guess a better way of looking at this is asking which position do you think we're in better shape at/which needs more improvement?

C: Matthews-Nylander-Kadri

D: Rielly-Gardiner-Zaitsev-Carrick

Just like in the Stamkos thread, it's hard to say.  They could all flop or they could all be good to great NHLers.  So we can go ahead with the defense we have and continue to stockpile.  Next season is another throw away season so we can let them get out there and learn trial by fire.

I don't think its a throw away season, no matter where they finish.  The new core is being built, not a roster filled with a bunch of stop gaps to trade for assets at the deadline and/or the ejection of a former faulty core.

It will be an important and valuable season of evaluating what we have in our new core pieces obtained, starting with Nylander.

When I say throw away I mean that we're not expecting to make the playoffs.  The next season will be about gaining experience for the young kids and evaluating lesser prospects to see what we have. 

So I'm ok with putting all our defensive prospects out there and if they make mistakes, that's fine.  Let them learn they can't be doing what they are doing in the AHL in the NHL etc. 

For me, I don't want to trade away our current prospect pool or assets (unless we are getting a great deal like Schenn for JVR) and let them grow.

Got it. 

 

[Tigger]

Outside of Rielly, Gardiner and to an extent Marincin, the Leafs don't really know what they have there yet, they'll likely be using this season to see what they've got, and to evaluate the development of all their dmen. Patience all around.

 

[TBLeafer]

He wasn't a Leaf for very many games over the past two seasons but he's now being chased by the KHL.

Should this borderline NHL'er and very valuable Marlie accept?

[tweet]739836142263099393[/tweet]

 

[Coco-puffs]

Using players we have right now I think a good top-6 3 years from now could look something like this:

Rielly-x
Gardiner-Zaitsev/Dermott
Marincin/Nielsen/Harrington-Carrick/Corrado

That 'x' is a pretty important piece though.

And that x might very well be Zaitsev himself.  He definitely has the potential to be a #2 defenseman on a contending team- just as Rielly could be a #1 (he isn't there yet).  Carrick may very well be a #4.  We just don't know yet as they are all still developing.  As many have said, we need to see what this group can do before we make any drastic moves.  Maybe we find 'x' in  this year's draft with the 30th or 31st pick

 

[Zee]

Using players we have right now I think a good top-6 3 years from now could look something like this:

Rielly-x
Gardiner-Zaitsev/Dermott
Marincin/Nielsen/Harrington-Carrick/Corrado

That 'x' is a pretty important piece though.

And that x might very well be Zaitsev himself.  He definitely has the potential to be a #2 defenseman on a contending team- just as Rielly could be a #1 (he isn't there yet).  Carrick may very well be a #4.  We just don't know yet as they are all still developing.  As many have said, we need to see what this group can do before we make any drastic moves.  Maybe we find 'x' in  this year's draft with the 30th or 31st pick

There are a lot of "mights".  Sure if everyone projects to be as good as we hope the Leafs will be well ahead of predictions for rebuilding.  However as we've seen in so many cases, rarely do things ever go as smoothly as you hope.  They'll be some players we expect big things out of who are disappointments, maybe some you weren't expecting anything from that surprise.  So all in all it's too soon to tell what kind of team this will be.  The entire summer awaits!

 

[nutman]

I think we have our top four, but we need to just hang in there and watch them grow. I also agree that this season is a tell tale season where we need to see what we have. I am of the opinion that we have more pieces of the puzzle than most think, its just a matter of when they can step up. As much as some of you on here want, we will not finish on the bottom of the pile next season, I am thinking we slowly start are climb this season. remember some of our core has been here for a season or so, and the pieces we add will be good ones as you all know by now.

Nik... why do you under value our players so much?. you have done this for years and years.

 

[rdowdall]

I think we have our top four, but we need to just hang in there and watch them grow. I also agree that this season is a tell tale season where we need to see what we have. I am of the opinion that we have more pieces of the puzzle than most think, its just a matter of when they can step up. As much as some of you on here want, we will not finish on the bottom of the pile next season, I am thinking we slowly start are climb this season. remember some of our core has been here for a season or so, and the pieces we add will be good ones as you all know by now.

Nik... why do you under value our players so much?. you have done this for years and years.

Well to be fair to Nik, 11 years with one playoff appearance doesn't really scream that you have competent players.

 

[nutman]

Ya but.. as a fan since the early 60's I think this is one of the better builds I have ever seen take place, and I am not taking a shot at Nik, I just think he needs to have some faith in what we have. too look at all the pieces we have and are about to add, this team is much further along then most can see.

We will have busts, but we will also have players come out of nowhere.

 

[louisstamos]

Well to be fair to Nik, 11 years with one playoff appearance doesn't really scream that you have competent players.

This.  So much this.

On top of which, it's not even undervaluing players - it's a determination of "show me what you can do."  Just because Zaitsev comes in with a lot of hype doesn't automatically mean he's a top pairing guy.  He hasn't played a single game in the NHL yet.  Let's see what he can do before making those determinations.

 

[bustaheims]

On top of which, it's not even undervaluing players - it's a determination of "show me what you can do."  Just because Zaitsev comes in with a lot of hype doesn't automatically mean he's a top pairing guy.  He hasn't played a single game in the NHL yet.  Let's see what he can do before making those determinations.

Exactly. Lots of players have come over from European leagues or the KHL with a lot of fanfare, and only a handful of them have actually come anywhere close to living up to the hype. Let's see what Zaitsev actually can do at the NHL level before we start talking about him as a potential . . . well, a potential anything for the future.

 

[rdowdall]

Ya but.. as a fan since the early 60's I think this is one of the better builds I have ever seen take place, and I am not taking a shot at Nik, I just think he needs to have some faith in what we have. too look at all the pieces we have and are about to add, this team is much further along then most can see.

We will have busts, but we will also have players come out of nowhere.

I think the message that gets lost in all this is that it isn't saying that the Leafs don't have good players.  It's saying lets wait and see that the Leafs have player x and player y before proclaiming to the world that the Leafs definitely have player x and player y, because a lot of these players have not played at the NHL level yet. 

 

[nutman]

I have not said we have them, but more so it looks like we are very much on track with what we have, and I agreed we need this season to be a tell tale season. Like some on here are, I will never be a Debbie downer.

 

[rdowdall]

I have not said we have them, but more so it looks like we are very much on track with what we have, and I agreed we need this season to be a tell tale season. Like some on here are, I will never be a Debbie downer.

I'm very excited about where the Leafs are.  I just want them to continue with the process, because I envision cheering for a team that is one of the top 3 or 5 teams in the league year in and year out.  That's what I would like to see the Leafs become.  The only difference that I see is some people want that vision to occur next year, and I don't think that's a realistic expectation based on how this needs to progress.

 

[louisstamos]

I have not said we have them, but more so it looks like we are very much on track with what we have, and I agreed we need this season to be a tell tale season. Like some on here are, I will never be a Debbie downer.

I don't think it's being a Debbie Downer at all.  It's just being thorough and cautious.

I'll put it to you this way - I actually have high hopes for Travis Dermott.  Based on his junior trajectory, I'm hoping he can evolve into a 1st pairing guy a la Dennis Wideman/Jay Bouwmeester.  But does that mean we should stop looking for that 1st pairing guy, either through drafting or externally, based on the fact that I believe this guy could be it some day?  I think that's putting all the eggs into one basket, which isn't smart management.  Yes, I believe Dermott could be a first pairing guy, but I'm not slotting him into the first pair until he's PROVEN he's a first pairing guy.

 

[nutman]

I have not said we have them, but more so it looks like we are very much on track with what we have, and I agreed we need this season to be a tell tale season. Like some on here are, I will never be a Debbie downer.

I'm very excited about where the Leafs are.  I just want them to continue with the process, because I envision cheering for a team that is one of the top 3 or 5 teams in the league year in and year out.  That's what I would like to see the Leafs become.  The only difference that I see is some people want that vision to occur next year, and I don't think that's a realistic expectation based on how this needs to progress.

Imo this season is the biggest in terms of what we have. I think we have some very solid talent coming up, and can't wait to see them play together. The season will be painful as they learn, but thats part of the build. This will be the season we can all pick our new fav, and get to know the rest. Then the the real Leaf hockey starts.