Leafs hire Kyle Dubas as assistant GM, Loiselle and Poulin Dismissed

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will assume that Nonis made the offer being the GM.

And I doubt Shanahan made the Nylander pick considering he was hired only just over 2 months before the draft.  He's made a point to say how he's trying to learn as much as he can but being so new on the job it's almost a certainty he deferred to Morrison and Nonis on the pick.

 

[Kin]

I will assume that Nonis made the offer being the GM.

Right, but this discussion branched out from a comment about Shanahan doing the sort of thing we would normally assume that a GM does. So my whole point is that we've been left with a fairly unclear picture of who is responsible for what right now, let alone going forward.

 

[cw]

James Mirtle @mirtle  ?  Jul 23
Shanahan's next renovation will be the scouting department. No reason Leafs shouldn't have one of league's best.

All this talk about when they'll hire a replacement GM for Nonis. Maybe they already did in mid April and all they screwed up on was forgetting to adjust the job titles.

I'm not complaining. I don't mind Shanahan at all as a hockey personality and generally as an executive at this point though my jury hasn't even sat down to examine the testimony and evidence yet.

I'm just experiencing a bit of surprise at how hands on Shanahan appears to be in the decisions arguably a GM would "normally" make.

Is that normally a GM's decision?  I can't really find any info one way or another.

There's certainly no firm "rule" that says it's "normal". Teams do vary some in their management structure and have for as long as I can remember.

"Normally", my impression has been the GM handles such hiring. Commonly, the President has been more of a financial guy and/or a non-hockey executive - not a hockey guy.

That maybe shifting some with hirings like Joe Sakic (and Shanahan) in the position of President.

Leiweke said this at the time so it's not really too surprising to me:

?We?re going to give him full authority,? said Leiweke. ?Everybody on the hockey side, everybody on the business side for the Toronto Maple Leafs reports in to Brendan Shanahan. He?s the boss.?

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/04/14/brendan-shanahan-to-have-full-authority-as-toronto-maple-leafs-president-alternate-governor/

In a way, no it isn't surprising in some respects as you point out. At the press conference announcing Shanahan, the media probed the issue with Shanahan and Nonis and they kind of said something like "we're a team" but that appears to have been just PR so far.

Lamoriello, Lombardi, Poile, Bryan Murray, Armstrong & Sather are examples of President/GMs as was Burke in Toronto. They wear both hats.

Yzerman, Bergevin, Bob Murray, Holland, Tallon, Bergevin, Rutherford, Wilson, Cheveldayoff and Maloney are examples of "Executive VP & GM"s who hire and fire scouts.

Caps VP GM MacLellan and Canes GM Francis probably fall into the above group.

Chiarelli, McTavish (exGM Lowe in background as President), Fletcher & Nill are examples of GMs without VP title who hire and fire scouts.

It too soon to say how the Holmgren-Hextall, Burke-Treliving, Linden-Benning President-GM arrangements will work. Although he is not an exNHLer, I do consider Burke like Linden and Holmgren - as a hockey guy as opposed to a financial guy/President.

Sakic looks like a predecessor to Shanahan's arrangement in that he was key to hiring coach Roy for example.

From reviewing that, I'd say the tradition/history has been the GM has the autonomy to hire and fire scouts. And we might have a new trend emerging where the new Presidents of clubs are more frequently coming with a hockey background and from that, they dabble in hiring and firing staff previously handled by the GM.

Again, I'm not saying one or the other is right or wrong. For me, the jury is out.

The one thing to consider should Shanahan fire Nonis is that a strong GM candidate would demand autonomy as a condition for accepting the position. Otherwise, he might be applying for a job as president of a franchise to get that autonomy.

 

[cw]

Leafs offer was 5 x $4.75M per Dreger and confirmed by Bolland's agent.

IMO still too high

Yep, Leafs signed something like 5 players now for the combined annual salary Florida gave him.

Somewhere recently, (Bleacher Report?), I saw Bolland had already made their top 10 overpaid list with his new contract.

 

[moon111]

Shanahan has Carlyle and Nonis to use for scapegoats.  Why fire them?

 

[freer]

Shanahan has Carlyle and Nonis to use for scapegoats.  Why fire them?

Because he is proud guy who I honestly think wants to win at any cost.

 

[skrackle]

Shanahan has Carlyle and Nonis to use for scapegoats.  Why fire them?

Shanahan has removed the buffer zone, safety net, call it what you will, that surrounded both Carlyle and Nonis. I don't think he's disrespecting either of those guys by doing so. They still have their jobs.

I'm not sure that Nonis and Carlyle are scapegoats. That term implies that they are unfairly blamed for the sorry state of the Leafs. The Leafs have been bad for a long time, dating back to Pat Quinn's dismissal. There's been a snowball effect of bad decisions piling on top of each other to this present day. Neither Nonis or Carlyle deserve to wear the goat horns for all of it, but both of them have contributed to it.

I think it's becoming clear that Shanahan is in charge of the Leafs. He's a hockey guy. I can't see him being content as some PR figurehead. Nonis and Carlyle are both on the hotseat. There may be a place for either or both of them with the Leafs if they are able to adapt to Shanahan's vision. If not, I don't expect to see either of them around much longer.

Whether or not Shanahan is the right guy to straighten out the whole mess is a much bigger question.

 

[Kin]

I'm not sure that Nonis and Carlyle are scapegoats. That term implies that they are unfairly blamed for the sorry state of the Leafs. The Leafs have been bad for a long time, dating back to Pat Quinn's dismissal. There's been a snowball effect of bad decisions piling on top of each other to this present day. Neither Nonis or Carlyle deserve to wear the goat horns for all of it, but both of them have contributed to it.

But then why keep them around? I think the point made in terms of "scapegoating" Carlyle and Nonis has to do with the peculiar idea of keeping them while seemingly either A) removing their authority or B) wanting them to adapt to a philosophy they don't share. As is, you seem to think that if the Leafs don't do well out of the gate this season that they're in trouble but if Shanahan is, as you say, running things then why should Dave Nonis' job be in jeopardy? If he's being kept around because he's buying into Shanahan's plan and the plan struggles, or if the team just isn't good, how does that reflect badly on a guy doing what he's told by his boss?

 

[Kin]

The one thing to consider should Shanahan fire Nonis is that a strong GM candidate would demand autonomy as a condition for accepting the position. Otherwise, he might be applying for a job as president of a franchise to get that autonomy.

I think that's a really excellent point and speaks to why I'm as curious about the division of responsibility as I am. Shanahan's hiring was sold as a lot of things but one thing it really wasn't sold as was the idea that Shanahan, who's got no experience running a team, was coming in as the de facto GM.

 

[skrackle]

I'm not sure that Nonis and Carlyle are scapegoats. That term implies that they are unfairly blamed for the sorry state of the Leafs. The Leafs have been bad for a long time, dating back to Pat Quinn's dismissal. There's been a snowball effect of bad decisions piling on top of each other to this present day. Neither Nonis or Carlyle deserve to wear the goat horns for all of it, but both of them have contributed to it.

But then why keep them around? I think the point made in terms of "scapegoating" Carlyle and Nonis has to do with the peculiar idea of keeping them while seemingly either A) removing their authority or B) wanting them to adapt to a philosophy they don't share. As is, you seem to think that if the Leafs don't do well out of the gate this season that they're in trouble but if Shanahan is, as you say, running things then why should Dave Nonis' job be in jeopardy? If he's being kept around because he's buying into Shanahan's plan and the plan struggles, or if the team just isn't good, how does that reflect badly on a guy doing what he's told by his boss?

Why keep them around? I don't know. If it was my decision they'd both be gone.

I don't think anything is going to happen out of the gate, but I do think both Nonis and Carlyle are on notice. Maybe Shanahan isn't sure if he has his GM and coach in place, or not. Perhaps he sees potential in both of these guys as far as the Leafs achieving success, but is demanding something beyond what they've delivered so far. Maybe it's up to them to step up.

Maybe Shanahan takes a season to evaluate what is happening with the Leafs, top to bottom and not much happens, but it seems Tim Leiweke has given Shanahan free reign to make whatever changes to the Leafs he deems necessary.

Whether this is for better or worse, I have no idea, but it will probably take longer than a season to play out.

 

[princedpw]

One of the best things I've heard from his interviews: "our team had the lowest number of fights in the league."

They also had one of the highest PIM's in the league.  Soooo...

They had the 2nd lowest PIM's in the league: http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/standings/show/ls_season/49/subtype/1

:-[ I stand corrected then.  Swear I read that in one of the articles on the day Dubas was hired.  I did work 16 hours that day so might be me.

I think he mentioned the 2nd lowest PIMs in his media availability in response to a question so probably just mis-heard/remembered it.  As a Greyhounds fan I'd say their discipline was a huge part of their success last season - and helped them have the #1 overall PK% in the league.

I'd prefer to know the number of power plays vs. penalty kills are rather than the total number of penalty minutes... It is not too hard for one team to get a lot of coincidental 5-minute majors but few non-coincidental minors (or majors).  It is the non-coincidental ones that lead to the goals for or against.

By times shorthanded they were 3rd fewest in the league.  They drew the 5th most PP's.

Impressive.

 

[Kin]

I don't think anything is going to happen out of the gate, but I do think both Nonis and Carlyle are on notice. Maybe Shanahan isn't sure if he has his GM and coach in place, or not. Perhaps he sees potential in both of these guys as far as the Leafs achieving success, but is demanding something beyond what they've delivered so far. Maybe it's up to them to step up.

Maybe Shanahan takes a season to evaluate what is happening with the Leafs, top to bottom and not much happens, but it seems Tim Leiweke has given Shanahan free reign to make whatever changes to the Leafs he deems necessary.

See, but that's what's confusing here. I absolutely buy a "let's wait and see" attitude if you're of the opinion that 10 weeks is somehow too short a time for an incoming GM to evaluate the organization pre-draft. Likewise, I also understand someone being hired to the position Shanahan was with a very specific idea in his head of where he wanted to go and making bold choices to accomplish that.

But I don't really get the in between. I don't get the "Let's give Randy and Dave a year to see what they've got, but clearly the AGM's and assistant coaches have to go" mentality.

And that's what's been so puzzling because as much as people seem to want to, there is no real good or definitive explanation that accounts for everything we've seen this off-season. Shanahan is an enemy of the status quo...who kept Carlyle and Nonis around. The team is getting a lot smarter...but would have backed up a brinks truck to Dave Bolland's house. Shanahan is an inch away from firing the GM and Coach...and yet making decisions that would seemingly preclude any high profile outside candidates coming into either position. There is no one narrative that fits all of those facts.

Well, excepting I guess something that we maybe glossed over a bit when Shanahan got hired because everyone was so disappointed in the Leafs' season. The Leafs hired someone as their President with no front office experience. None. Not as a scout, not as a AGM or a coach...zilch. It was probably naive of us to think Shanahan was going to hit the ground running.

Like you, after watching this off-season I'm still undecided on Shanahan and, by that extension, Leiweke. That's why, at this point, the only thing that interests me is clarity. I want to know if, should Nonis get fired, we should be expecting the sort of new GM who would take a job where he wasn't really running the team.

 

[freer]

I don't think anything is going to happen out of the gate, but I do think both Nonis and Carlyle are on notice. Maybe Shanahan isn't sure if he has his GM and coach in place, or not. Perhaps he sees potential in both of these guys as far as the Leafs achieving success, but is demanding something beyond what they've delivered so far. Maybe it's up to them to step up.

Maybe Shanahan takes a season to evaluate what is happening with the Leafs, top to bottom and not much happens, but it seems Tim Leiweke has given Shanahan free reign to make whatever changes to the Leafs he deems necessary.

See, but that's what's confusing here. I absolutely buy a "let's wait and see" attitude if you're of the opinion that 10 weeks is somehow too short a time for an incoming GM to evaluate the organization pre-draft. Likewise, I also understand someone being hired to the position Shanahan was with a very specific idea in his head of where he wanted to go and making bold choices to accomplish that.

But I don't really get the in between. I don't get the "Let's give Randy and Dave a year to see what they've got, but clearly the AGM's and assistant coaches have to go" mentality.

And that's what's been so puzzling because as much as people seem to want to, there is no real good or definitive explanation that accounts for everything we've seen this off-season. Shanahan is an enemy of the status quo...who kept Carlyle and Nonis around. The team is getting a lot smarter...but would have backed up a brinks truck to Dave Bolland's house. Shanahan is an inch away from firing the GM and Coach...and yet making decisions that would seemingly preclude any high profile outside candidates coming into either position. There is no one narrative that fits all of those facts.

Well, excepting I guess something that we maybe glossed over a bit when Shanahan got hired because everyone was so disappointed in the Leafs' season. The Leafs hired someone as their President with no front office experience. None. Not as a scout, not as a AGM or a coach...zilch. It was probably naive of us to think Shanahan was going to hit the ground running.

Like you, after watching this off-season I'm still undecided on Shanahan and, by that extension, Leiweke. That's why, at this point, the only thing that interests me is clarity. I want to know if, should Nonis get fired, we should be expecting the sort of new GM who would take a job where he wasn't really running the team.

perhaps, Shanahan wants to see if the problems from last season were brought about by awful coaching practices rather then lazy players who cant follow coaches instructions. As for Nonis, I think the reigns have taken from him.

 

[lamajama]

On the flip side, if it goes south for this guy, he's only 2 letters from a really good nickname.

I don't think you got proper recognition for this post.

;D  ;D

 

[Courtnall]

I'm not sure that Nonis and Carlyle are scapegoats. That term implies that they are unfairly blamed for the sorry state of the Leafs. The Leafs have been bad for a long time, dating back to Pat Quinn's dismissal. There's been a snowball effect of bad decisions piling on top of each other to this present day. Neither Nonis or Carlyle deserve to wear the goat horns for all of it, but both of them have contributed to it.

But then why keep them around? I think the point made in terms of "scapegoating" Carlyle and Nonis has to do with the peculiar idea of keeping them while seemingly either A) removing their authority or B) wanting them to adapt to a philosophy they don't share. As is, you seem to think that if the Leafs don't do well out of the gate this season that they're in trouble but if Shanahan is, as you say, running things then why should Dave Nonis' job be in jeopardy? If he's being kept around because he's buying into Shanahan's plan and the plan struggles, or if the team just isn't good, how does that reflect badly on a guy doing what he's told by his boss?

Carlyle is staying only because he didn't want to hire a new coach just to fire him at the end of season. Babcock will be coaching the year after this one. Just my personal opinion.

 

[Highlander]

David Copperfield will coach, David Blaine will assist, & presto, The Cup

 

[Britishbulldog]

On the flip side, if it goes south for this guy, he's only 2 letters from a really good nickname.

I don't think you got proper recognition for this post.

;D  ;D

I am too ignorant in pop culture I guess to figure this one out.  I missed it completely. 

Dufus?  Help me....

 

[Deebo]

On the flip side, if it goes south for this guy, he's only 2 letters from a really good nickname.

I don't think you got proper recognition for this post.

;D  ;D

I am too ignorant in pop culture I guess to figure this one out.  I missed it completely. 

Dufus?  Help me....

Add an M and B, not beside each other.

 

[riff raff]

On the flip side, if it goes south for this guy, he's only 2 letters from a really good nickname.

I don't think you got proper recognition for this post.

;D  ;D

I am too ignorant in pop culture I guess to figure this one out.  I missed it completely. 

Dufus?  Help me....

Add an M and B, not beside each other.

No...it's an M and an S.....

 

[Tigger]

Still digesting this. I like the move but I think it's way too early to read much into the inpack impact overall or where it will show itself successfully. Kyle seems like a bright young man, I hope he's part of the solution.