Line-up changes

[bustaheims]

That's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy though, isn't it? You're right. If Wilson is deciding to not play those guys then, yeah, they may be better off getting to play but being as it's Wilson's judgment being questioned here I don't think Wilson's judgment can be used as supporting evidence.

I have to disagree with you there - you have to look at the situation as it's going to be, not as you want it to be. If Wilson is only going to play whoever for 10 minutes, that's something that has to be considered when looking at the merits of the roster decision. Whether you agree with how Wilson is using a player or not is a different discussion.

But what I was saying is that a 3/4th line tweener getting 10 minutes a night is a position of such minimal value that you could probably fill it internally without there being a big difference between a bigger role for Brown/Rosehill and Crabb/Brown.

I understand Frattin/Kadri having the spot with an eye to the longterm implications and I don't see the short-term gain even if the popular thinking is that Frattin was stinking up the joint.

Well, part of the reasoning for calling up Crabb instead of no one is A) the Leafs are on the road for back to back games, so, having the extra body around is to their benefit, whether Crabb gets any games or not and B) it's better to have someone like Crabb in the pressbox than Frattin. On top of that, I know I'd rather see 10 minutes of Crabb than 5 of Rosehill/Orr. Wilson appears to have gotten away from feeling the need to dress a pugilist every night (something I'm fairly sure you support), so, he clearly wanted to add someone who can play real 4th line minutes, which Joey Crabb is perfectly capable of doing - and is less likely to have those minutes equal a bunch of penalties against like Rosehill has shown to have happen to him in the past.

 

[Kin]

Well, I guess I disagree with popular perception, because, outside of the goaltender interference penalty against the Rangers, I really haven't noticed much from him in the past couple weeks.

Obviously there's no scientific way to measure how well he's played but I think we can look at some things that point to him being, at the very least, noteworthy recently. There's not much to say for him last week, you're right, but in the week before Frattin played four games:

vs. Winnipeg: scored shoot-out winner
vs. Boston: named MotM by our fellow posters
vs. Montreal: tied for team lead in SOG
vs. Philly: named HM for MotM by our fellow posters

So it does seem as though people have been taking note/have had reason to take note. I think what might be going on is that Frattin, who it's worth keeping in mind is basically in his first pro season, may be a little gassed after the compressed schedule the Leafs have played the last two weeks. So that may feed into the perception of kind of a quick hook from Wilson.

 

[Tigger]

Frattin could well be up tomorrow, for him it's just work but I can see why Crabb offers just a little more and is a little cheaper and might even deserve a little reward. I think this is Wilson/Burke actually doing what's best for both Frattin and the Leafs in the very short term, small potatoes.

 

[Tigger]

Well, part of the reasoning for calling up Crabb instead of no one is A) the Leafs are on the road for back to back games, so, having the extra body around is to their benefit, whether Crabb gets any games or not and B) it's better to have someone like Crabb in the pressbox than Frattin. On top of that, I know I'd rather see 10 minutes of Crabb than 5 of Rosehill/Orr. Wilson appears to have gotten away from feeling the need to dress a pugilist every night (something I'm fairly sure you support), so, he clearly wanted to add someone who can play real 4th line minutes, which Joey Crabb is perfectly capable of doing - and is likely to have those minutes equal a bunch of penalties against like Rosehill has shown to have happen to him in the past.

Nice, especially Crabb versus Rosehill/Orr.


One could argue...

Lombardi Bozak  Brown
Steckel    Dupuis Crabb

...isn't bad for a band aid.

 

[Kin]

I have to disagree with you there - you have to look at the situation as it's going to be, not as you want it to be. If Wilson is only going to play whoever for 10 minutes, that's something that has to be considered when looking at the merits of the roster decision. Whether you agree with how Wilson is using a player or not is a different discussion.

I don't think you can ever separate any personnel move from the larger question of whether a player is being used to the maximum benefit of the team/his development. A coach souring on a player for no good reason(hypothetically) is a reason to be opposed to moving that player, not justification for it. I don't think in that situation you can simply say "Well, the coach doesn't like him, so it's the right move".

I mean, you'd have a point if the two viewpoints were "I agree with the move" or "I think Frattin should be getting 8 minutes a game" but if the viewpoint is more that Frattin has been doing relatively well in his role then Wilson's decision is double-plus wrong.

Well, part of the reasoning for calling up Crabb instead of no one is A) the Leafs are on the road for back to back games, so, having the extra body around is to their benefit, whether Crabb gets any games or not and B) it's better to have someone like Crabb in the pressbox than Frattin. On top of that, I know I'd rather see 10 minutes of Crabb than 5 of Rosehill/Orr. Wilson appears to have gotten away from feeling the need to dress a pugilist every night (something I'm fairly sure you support), so, he clearly wanted to add someone who can play real 4th line minutes, which Joey Crabb is perfectly capable of doing - and is likely to have those minutes equal a bunch of penalties against like Rosehill has shown to have happen to him in the past.

The Rosehill suggestion was just to illustrate the really minimal gain here as there isn't just the dichotomy you present but any number of ways to split that icetime. As before, my preference is to use that 3rd line winger spot to give ice time to a younger player even if he's momentarily fallen out of favour with the coach.

To me it seems like Frattin played well for a stretch and then either slowed a little or just fell out of favour. So you could sit him for a game or two and see how he responds before bringing him back to get respectable third line ice time rather than just throw him down to the minors. The way you're talking about it, where Frattin's spot is going to be blocked by Crabb for a significant amount of time, strikes me as being pretty knee-jerk even if he had stunk up the joint.

 

[bustaheims]

One could argue...

Lombardi Bozak  Brown
Steckel    Dupuis Crabb

...isn't bad for a band aid.

It's not terrible - especially considering Brown, Steckel, Dupuis and Crabb are likely to split those 3rd line duties among them based on the situation at hand.

 

[Kin]

One could argue...

Lombardi Bozak  Brown
Steckel    Dupuis Crabb

...isn't bad for a band aid.

I guess. But it seems like a pretty strange argument if the opposing POV is that there's no cut.

 

[Tigger]

One could argue...

Lombardi Bozak  Brown
Steckel    Dupuis Crabb

...isn't bad for a band aid.

It's not terrible - especially considering Brown, Steckel, Dupuis and Crabb are likely to split those 3rd line duties among them based on the situation at hand.

Yeah, the experience, fwiw, on the pk alone might have been the deciding factor never mind the rest. It's not ideal but I think it's marginally better at least.

 

[Tigger]

One could argue...

Lombardi Bozak  Brown
Steckel    Dupuis Crabb

...isn't bad for a band aid.

I guess. But it seems like a pretty strange argument if the opposing POV is that there's no cut.

There's a cut but one less stitch?

 

[Kin]

There's a cut but one stitch less?

Malpractice, I say.

 

[TML fan]

With 1 point in 11 games, I don't understand how you can think that sending a player who's main weapon is his offensive ability down to further develop his offensive ability is a bad move.

I mean, if you're satisfied with Frattin being just another NHL grinder then absolutely this move makes no sense, but Frattin isn't doing the things that got him drafted at the NHL level, and that's what this move is about. Not the things that Frattin has done, but the things he hasn't. The logic of the move is that Crabb can theoretically do the same things Frattin has been doing well, and there would be no loss in offensive output. Perhaps even some gain.

At this point, I don't think there's any reason to believe that Frattin is too good to play in the AHL. If he goes down there and absolutely rips it up then you can bet he'll be back with the Leafs in no time.

 

[Tigger]

There's a cut but one stitch less?

Malpractice, I say.

Well it was an Army doctor after all...

 

[Kin]

Well it was an Army doctor after all...

You have to be crazy to want to fly, Yossarian.

 

[Tigger]

Well it was an Army doctor after all...

You have to be crazy to want to fly, Yossarian.

mmm, food!

 

[Stronger Than All]

This move boggles my mind.  I don't want to see Crabb here instead of Frattin.  Maybe if it was Kadri coming back....

 

[4th Liner]

With 1 point in 11 games, I don't understand how you can think that sending a player who's main weapon is his offensive ability down to further develop his offensive ability is a bad move.

I mean, if you're satisfied with Frattin being just another NHL grinder then absolutely this move makes no sense, but Frattin isn't doing the things that got him drafted at the NHL level, and that's what this move is about. Not the things that Frattin has done, but the things he hasn't. The logic of the move is that Crabb can theoretically do the same things Frattin has been doing well, and there would be no loss in offensive output. Perhaps even some gain.

At this point, I don't think there's any reason to believe that Frattin is too good to play in the AHL. If he goes down there and absolutely rips it up then you can bet he'll be back with the Leafs in no time.

This

 

[ZBBM]

Well it was an Army doctor after all...

You have to be crazy to want to fly, Yossarian.

I've always wondered if there was a market for an unauthorized sequel to that.  Seems like there would be, and I've toyed with giving it a whirl.  The only thing is, I haven't got the slightest idea what to call it.

 

[Bonsixx]

With 1 point in 11 games, I don't understand how you can think that sending a player who's main weapon is his offensive ability down to further develop his offensive ability is a bad move.

I mean, if you're satisfied with Frattin being just another NHL grinder then absolutely this move makes no sense, but Frattin isn't doing the things that got him drafted at the NHL level, and that's what this move is about. Not the things that Frattin has done, but the things he hasn't. The logic of the move is that Crabb can theoretically do the same things Frattin has been doing well, and there would be no loss in offensive output. Perhaps even some gain.

At this point, I don't think there's any reason to believe that Frattin is too good to play in the AHL. If he goes down there and absolutely rips it up then you can bet he'll be back with the Leafs in no time.

This

Exactly. Let him go to the A and maybe find his scoring touch, if he has one? So far he looks like a flashier Christian Hanson. Just absolutely brutal, non-existent finish.

I like Frattin, but you can only watch a guy whiff on opportunities so much before you need to shuffle things up a bit. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him this season.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Just absolutely brutal, non-existent finish.

That seems like quite an overstatement.  His shootout goal shows the kind of finish he has/shot he has, he's just not had them go in.  Would hardly be the first rookie to go through it, he's had his share of posts, etc.

 

[cw]

Just absolutely brutal, non-existent finish.

That seems like quite an overstatement.  His shootout goal shows the kind of finish he has/shot he has, he's just not had them go in.  Would hardly be the first rookie to go through it, he's had his share of posts, etc.

He had at least five posts or crossbars - probably more. An argument could be made that he was a little snake bit.

I think he'll be back before the season is out. I was quite taken with his two way game for a rookie.

Having said that, I don't think it's an awful move or anything like that. The AHL ice time isn't going to hurt him. There's some decent talent and a good coach down there for him to play with.

Now I didn't care for Crabb at all last season - partly due to the role he was in on Kessel's line. But he has played very well for the Marlies and credit is due. He's earned another look if any of them have. I do like the fact that this franchise rewards the AHLers based upon their play.