Line-up changes

[maplesyrup]

Part of the reason why Biggs could (COULD) be a very excellent pick.

I don't think it's the sort of value you want to look for in a first round pick. Especially because, as I said, the Leafs are already pretty well positioned for that.

Will they be 2+ years from now when Biggs can contribute though? I don't think Burke even knows that.

 

[Kin]

Will they be 2+ years from now when Biggs can contribute though? I don't think Burke even knows that.

Well, aside from the fact that I think Schenn and Phaneuf are pretty safe bets to be around for a while I think that's the sort of thing that a team can pretty easily address in the FA market. I mean, Brown cost a 5th rounder, right?

 

[maplesyrup]

Will they be 2+ years from now when Biggs can contribute though? I don't think Burke even knows that.

Well, aside from the fact that I think Schenn and Phaneuf are pretty safe bets to be around for a while I think that's the sort of thing that a team can pretty easily address in the FA market. I mean, Brown cost a 5th rounder, right?

Sure... but I'm not sure Brown ever had the potential to play in the top 6 where as the jury is still out on Biggs.

 

[Kin]

Sure... but I'm not sure Brown ever had the potential to play in the top 6 where as the jury is still out on Biggs.

I think you're kind of missing my point. I don't see the ability to fight as something you really want from your top 6 guys or really important defensemen. I don't think it adds much value to anybody. In the relatively rare event that there's a legitimate need to fight you want someone on your roster who can do it but it's the kind of thing that can be pretty easily added if there's a deficiency.

 

[maplesyrup]

Sure... but I'm not sure Brown ever had the potential to play in the top 6 where as the jury is still out on Biggs.

I think you're kind of missing my point. I don't see the ability to fight as something you really want from your top 6 guys or really important defensemen. I don't think it adds much value to anybody. In the relatively rare event that there's a legitimate need to fight you want someone on your roster who can do it but it's the kind of thing that can be pretty easily added if there's a deficiency.

Two of my all-time favorite players are Neely and Clark... I don't see the problem.

 

[Erndog]

The Leafs are pretty well positioned to take that sort of stance because with Schenn, Brown, Phaneuf, Komisarek and Grabo in the line-up they have enough guys who, should the need arise for a fight, can step up and get involved.

He's not soft, but I wouldn't go that far Nik.  I'll add that Clarke MacArthur showed last season he's willing to drop the mitts if he has too. 

 

[Kin]

Two of my all-time favorite players are Neely and Clark... I don't see the problem.

Well, I'm not going to try to tell you who your favourite players should be but both guys were very, very frequently out of the line-up with injuries. Clark played 70+ games in a season only three times and averaged 53 games a season. Neely was also frequently hurt and finished at 30. Both guys left a ton on the table because injuries derailed their careers. That's not something you want with high value forwards.

 

[Kin]

He's not soft, but I wouldn't go that far Nik.

That was just a joke because of the whole barfight thing.

 

[cw]

The Leafs are pretty well positioned to take that sort of stance because with Schenn, Brown, Phaneuf, Komisarek and Grabo in the line-up they have enough guys who, should the need arise for a fight, can step up and get involved.

He's not soft, but I wouldn't go that far Nik.  I'll add that Clarke MacArthur showed last season he's willing to drop the mitts if he has too.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/5600

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/1665

 

[Tigger]

?They?re trying to change the style of the fourth line, get guys that can play and put up some numbers,? said Dupuis, who played with typical fourth-line enforcers Cody McLeod and David Koci in Colorado last season.

?You won?t see two really tough guys on the fourth line anymore that can?t play. The guys that we have on the team now, they?re all real good hockey players. We can all play and be good out there.?

I imagine Orr and Rosehill are chuffed hearing that from Dupuis in the article...

Well, at least in my mind Rosehill can play....playish, at least, he's got decent wheels.

Yup, ahead of Orr in terms of overall usefulness but minus the top end fighting ability.

Looking at that 4th line it's interesting to see that it was built with a 4th and a 5th round pick. Even the depth tough guys were no talent cost acquisitions.

 

[maplesyrup]

Two of my all-time favorite players are Neely and Clark... I don't see the problem.

Well, I'm not going to try to tell you who your favourite players should be but both guys were very, very frequently out of the line-up with injuries. Clark played 70+ games in a season only three times and averaged 53 games a season. Neely was also frequently hurt and finished at 30. Both guys left a ton on the table because injuries derailed their careers. That's not something you want with high value forwards.

... and Lucic could likely follow in their footsteps with shortened careers and Iginla (while probably an exception) might already be showing signs. Either way, I like what a dominant power forward can bring to the line-up... even if their careers are shorter than they should be.

 

[Kin]

... and Lucic could likely follow in their footsteps with shortened careers and Iginla (while probably an exception) might already be showing signs. Either way, I like what a dominant power forward can bring to the line-up... even if their careers are shorter than they should be.

But even ignoring the issue of injury there's still the pretty basic reality of wanting your best players out on the ice. That's why you don't want one of your best players to take the five minute penalty.

That's why it adds value to a player like a Brown or a Komisarek. Guys who are significantly better than that should really only fight as a last resort.

 

[cw]

I think this is just the start of what's probably going to be a pretty league-wide philosophy on fighting. The Leafs are pretty well positioned to take that sort of stance because with Schenn, Brown, Phaneuf, Komisarek and Grabo in the line-up they have enough guys who, should the need arise for a fight, can step up and get involved. There's really no need to burn a roster spot on a guy for that purpose.

Part of the reason why Biggs could (COULD) be a very excellent pick.

I think he's a line in the water for a power forward: tough to come by as there are not enough of them around. In that way, maybe he's a "safer" pick (in terms of getting something for their draft asset) because if he doesn't crack  the top 6, he's probably got enough skills and size to be a respectable checker.

 

[Kin]

I think he's a line in the water for a power forward: tough to come by as there are not enough of them around. In that way, maybe he's a "safer" pick (in terms of getting something for their draft asset) because if he doesn't crack  the top 6, he's probably got enough skills and size to be a respectable checker.

That strikes me as more likely. The trade-off they may have made there, and a reasonable one, is that you take a more well-rounded player with a little less 1st line upside whose career can go in a number of ways.

 

[maplesyrup]

I think he's a line in the water for a power forward: tough to come by as there are not enough of them around. In that way, maybe he's a "safer" pick (in terms of getting something for their draft asset) because if he doesn't crack  the top 6, he's probably got enough skills and size to be a respectable checker.

That strikes me as more likely. The trade-off they may have made there, and a reasonable one, is that you take a more well-rounded player with a little less 1st line upside whose career can go in a number of ways.

Which, like I said makes him a good pick. At least a good one in my mind.

 

[Tigger]

Taking the cost notion one step further, aside from internally drafted and departed players the team cost...

Draft picks

2 1sts and a 2nd Kessel
2nd Grabbo
2nd Liles
4th conditional Lombardi ( hopefully )
4th Steckel
5th Brown

Players

Franson/Lombardi Lebda/Slaney
Lupul/Gardiner Beauchemin ( who was signed as an ufa )
Phaneuf/Aulie Stajan/Hagman/White/Mayers

8 ufas...

MacArthur
Connolly
Army
Bozak
Dupuis
Orr
Komi
Goose

Rosehill's trade was between ahl clubs if I have it right, not sure it had any effect on the Leafs.

I think that's it, not bad at all.

 

[Kin]

Which, like I said makes him a good pick. At least a good one in my mind.

But that has nothing to do with fighting, which is what you said.

 

[maplesyrup]

Which, like I said makes him a good pick. At least a good one in my mind.

But that has nothing to do with fighting, which is what you said.

Where did you lose me?... My point is Biggs could be a good pick given the fact he can fight and given the he could probably contribute more offensively than say a Mike Brown... Factor all that with the fact that some of think a pure enforcer is a waste of a roster spot and there lies the point... Got me? 

 

[bustaheims]

4th conditional Lupul/Gardiner

There was no draft pick cost for the Leafs on this one. The only thing the Leafs sent to Anaheim was Beauchemin. The conditional pick in this trade is coming to the Leafs as either a 4th round pick or a 6th round pick.

 

[cw]

Taking the cost notion one step further, aside from internally drafted and departed players the team cost...

Draft picks

2 1sts and a 2nd Kessel
2nd Grabbo
2nd Liles
4th conditional Lupul/Gardiner
4th conditional Lombardi ( hopefully )
4th Steckel
5th Brown

Players

Franson/Lombardi Lebda/Slaney
Lupul/Gardiner Beauchemin ( who was signed as an ufa )
Phaneuf/Aulie Stajan/Hagman/White/Mayers
....
I think that's it, not bad at all.

Trades are more or less 50/50 propositions - you give up something to get something. Some you win and some you lose. There's not a real burn in the bunch you've listed there. Burkie looks ahead of the game on the trade front - quite handily. We've discussed each one of these deals to death but when I look at that list, it's not a bad one (though a few of his deals are not on it and the jury is still out on a few of these guys).