Luke Schenn: One more chance?

[maplesyrup]

Jeff Ware = "bad pick." Luke Schenn (at this point) = "decent" pick... Zee, as a Leaf fan, you have to know the difference.

OK, Schenn can actually play in the league unlike Ware, but I think the Leafs could have made a better pick just by focusing on skillset alone.  Forget the defensman in the "Komisarek mold", which is what Schenn is.  Look for guys who can skate and have a good shot.

I think even with the speed of today's game, one can still be an effective D-man even if he isn't the swiftest of foot. If you have some brains, anticipate correctly, and not get caught out of position, you can get away with slower wheels. I think there's a chance Schenn can play another 10-15 years in this league if he develops more grey matter and  instincts.     

 

[Zee]

Jeff Ware = "bad pick." Luke Schenn (at this point) = "decent" pick... Zee, as a Leaf fan, you have to know the difference.

OK, Schenn can actually play in the league unlike Ware, but I think the Leafs could have made a better pick just by focusing on skillset alone.  Forget the defensman in the "Komisarek mold", which is what Schenn is.  Look for guys who can skate and have a good shot.

I think even with the speed of today's game, one can still be an effective D-man even if he isn't the swiftest of foot. If you have some brains, anticipate correctly, and not get caught out of position, you can get away with slower wheels. I think there's a chance Schenn can play another 10-15 years in this league if he develops more grey matter and  instincts.   

Let's hope.  Maybe he gets traded and we'll stop talking about him. 

 

[Kin]

OK, Schenn can actually play in the league unlike Ware, but I think the Leafs could have made a better pick just by focusing on skillset alone.  Forget the defensman in the "Komisarek mold", which is what Schenn is.  Look for guys who can skate and have a good shot.

But the reality is that defensemen of that type can still be tremendously valuable to teams. Willie Mitchell, for instance, provides almost no offense and is not winning a ton of races but he's getting 25+ minutes a night, killing penalties and putting the thump on people.

If you can get a player like that, he can help a team tremendously. Schenn hasn't established himself as that sort of player consistently yet but that's the issue. Nikita Filatov looks like a bust but it doesn't invalidate the skillset people said he had on draft day.

 

[hap_leaf]

We are talking about players being kept up in the NHL in their draft year or generally quite early vs. spending time in development.  You know, this Schenn vs. Kadri?

Sure. Kadri hasn't shown he can be a good NHL player yet. I'm with you there.

What is confusing me is the idea that there's some sort of sweeping philosophical shift there between Schenn and Kadri's development. Schenn showed in his rookie year, and intermittently since then, that he could be a decent NHL defenseman. They didn't keep him up for any other reason.

If the "Kadri treatment" is keeping guys out of the NHL if they're unable to play at a sufficient level to be in the NHL then I don't know if anyone, anywhere, has ever advocated anything else for any prospect.

It's not a sweeping shift.. it's more of a subtle change in thinking on how prospects are developed through the system.

Schenn had a very good rookie camp. He was kept up.  Kadri had a very good rookie camp as well. He was not kept up. Right there is the the first evidence of a difference. 

3 camps later and Kadri still goes down. Which I think we both agree was the right choice. It was an unpopular decision to send him down all 3 times, but it was the right one all 3 times.

Wilson said with Schenn he could coach him through the tough times and help him.  With Kadri, Wilson said he needs to go down to learn how to not do the things that made him a liability. Another difference in thinking.

Burke has said 100 times that in general he believes players need to spend a good amount of time developing in the AHL. He has been ragged on for 2 years now by all sorts of corners for being mean and nasty by keeping Kadri in the AHL.  But it's the right choice.

You both assume a standard template that is used through the organization in dealing with this issue.  I would say that simply based on one being a forward and one being a defensman that different perspectives were used in the choices made. 

For a forward there is a bigger pool of talent to choose from and within the depth chart, Kadri would be of less hurry to be rushed into the big league.  For Schenn in a smaller talent pool the decision may have been based more on necessity. 

There could be other factors as well: incompatible linemates for Kadri's size and play style; in the case of Schenn, a defensive linemate that could be trusted to cover for his rookie mistakes. 

 

[maplesyrup]

Jeff Ware = "bad pick." Luke Schenn (at this point) = "decent" pick... Zee, as a Leaf fan, you have to know the difference.

OK, Schenn can actually play in the league unlike Ware, but I think the Leafs could have made a better pick just by focusing on skillset alone.  Forget the defensman in the "Komisarek mold", which is what Schenn is.  Look for guys who can skate and have a good shot.

I think even with the speed of today's game, one can still be an effective D-man even if he isn't the swiftest of foot. If you have some brains, anticipate correctly, and not get caught out of position, you can get away with slower wheels. I think there's a chance Schenn can play another 10-15 years in this league if he develops more grey matter and  instincts.   

Let's hope.  Maybe he gets traded and we'll stop talking about him. 

As long as it's a decent return (which I'm sure it would be) I'm open to moving him and to that point, "bad" picks don't normally fetch one do they now?

 

[Kin]

You both assume a standard template that is used through the organization in dealing with this issue.

I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying they deal with the issue with each player specifically and adapt it to their particular situation.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But the reality is that defensemen of that type can still be tremendously valuable to teams. Willie Mitchell, for instance, provides almost no offense and is not winning a ton of races but he's getting 25+ minutes a night, killing penalties and putting the thump on people.

While their ice-times aren't as high, you can say the same about Greene and Scuderi.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

And Volchenkov.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

And Volchenkov.

Yup, I was just looking at LA but those type of defencemen are still very much valuable in the NHL and plenty of playoff teams had them. Michalek and Orpik in Pittsburgh. Jackman and Polak in St. Louis. Vlasic and Murray in San Jose.

 

[Jalili]

I don't know what to think of Schenn anymore.  Maybe he'll still develop into a great blueliner, maybe not, but when I look at his draft year and the defenseman taken AFTER him, I cringe.  Why did we move up to the #5 spot to get him when we could have had Karlsson, Del Zotto, Myers or Gardiner (ok we have  him now) without moving draft spots?

None of those guys were on the radar at 7th overall though, except for maybe Tyler Myers... so Nik is right in saying that it's like talking about how everyone passed on Datsyuk.

If we're going to look back at what would have otherwise been, we should probably be looking at Schenn vs. Colin Wilson (or Hodgson/Boedker) + the 2nd/3rd round picks.

Personally I'd rather have the latter option given the choice, but it's hard to say that definitively because a: it's still early to say and b: the difference isn't significant enough to be upset about.

 

[freer]

Wow
Eight pages on this.. Schenn is an above average defensive d-man who makes mistakes. I am really surprised how everyone wants to bad mouth his progress. IMO Ron Wilson was awful for any of the younger players during is stay. Carlyle will sort all of this out come training camp. Schenn just needs to play old fashion defensive hockey because he is never going to be a goal scorer.

 

[Strangelove]

Wow
Eight pages on this.. Schenn is an above average defensive d-man who makes mistakes. I am really surprised how everyone wants to bad mouth his progress. IMO Ron Wilson was awful for any of the younger players during is stay. Carlyle will sort all of this out come training camp. Schenn just needs to play old fashion defensive hockey because he is never going to be a goal scorer.

This is total baloney.  The fact that he was picked 5th overall and entered the NHL as a teenager doesn't automatically make him "above average".  As far as Leafs defenseman go, Gunnarsson is the only one I might classify in that category.  Barring a month or two of average play with Kaberle, Schenn has been a complete dud, with glaring defects all over his game.

 

[Champ Kind]

Wow
Eight pages on this.. Schenn is an above average defensive d-man who makes mistakes. I am really surprised how everyone wants to bad mouth his progress. IMO Ron Wilson was awful for any of the younger players during is stay. Carlyle will sort all of this out come training camp. Schenn just needs to play old fashion defensive hockey because he is never going to be a goal scorer.

This is total baloney.  The fact that he was picked 5th overall and entered the NHL as a teenager doesn't automatically make him "above average".  As far as Leafs defenseman go, Gunnarsson is the only one I might classify in that category.  Barring a month or two of average play with Kaberle, Schenn has been a complete dud, with glaring defects all over his game.

Actually, Strangelove, your comment is much more out-of-touch than the one you've criticized. 

Gardiner, at the VERY least, would have to be considered above average. 

 

[Tigger]

Yeah, I don't think Schenn is a dud but he does need some work.

I know it won't be a popular notion but Phaneuf was above average as well.

 

[maplesyrup]

Yeah, I don't think Schenn is a dud but he does need some work.

I know it won't be a popular notion but Phaneuf was above average as well.

Thank you for saying that. Forgetting about his cap hit, I think what we have in Phaneuf is a guy who's defensive warts can be lived with provided he keeps putting up the offensive numbers he does. Really, take the salary away and there are far more guys behind him than in front of him talent-wise. 

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Yeah, I don't think Schenn is a dud but he does need some work.

I know it won't be a popular notion but Phaneuf was above average as well.

Thank you for saying that. Forgetting about his cap hit, I think what we have in Phaneuf is a guy who's defensive warts can be lived with provided he keeps putting up the offensive numbers he does. Really, take the salary away and there are far more guys behind him than in front of him talent-wise. 

I agree, the guy takes a lot of heat. I was glad that Phaneuf had a better year. I also believe he is still a young captain and takes too much heat on that side of things as well, but like Tigger said, it's probably an unpopular opinion.

 

[bustaheims]

I agree, the guy takes a lot of heat. I was glad that Phaneuf had a better year. I also believe he is still a young captain and takes too much heat on that side of things as well, but like Tigger said, it's probably an unpopular opinion.

Yeah. In many cases, I think maybe some people have unreasonable expectations about the defensive impact of individual players. Defence is a team game, always has been and always will be, and it's something that the Leafs have struggle with, as a team, since the early 90s.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Defence is a team game, always has been and always will be, and it's something that the Leafs have struggle with, as a team, since the early 90s.

Definitely, however, I have this feeling that Carlyle is going to change that in Toronto. Maybe not Pat Burns defense, but a lot better than the run and gun we've seen here for a while now.
With the kids coming up through Eakins' style, I think it will mesh nicely and the kids will transition with a more responsible mind set when coming up.

 

[Mike1]

Defence is a team game, always has been and always will be, and it's something that the Leafs have struggle with, as a team, since the early 90s.

Definitely, however, I have this feeling that Carlyle is going to change that in Toronto. Maybe not Pat Burns defense, but a lot better than the run and gun we've seen here for a while now.
With the kids coming up through Eakins' style, I think it will mesh nicely and the kids will transition with a more responsible mind set when coming up.

Carlyle is going to try to do it & I think that is the right thing to do. Whether this team is going to accept it is a different story. Burns demanded defensive accountability too but he also had the benefit of having a player like Gilmour, who was a very good defensive player.

 

[Strangelove]

Wow
Eight pages on this.. Schenn is an above average defensive d-man who makes mistakes. I am really surprised how everyone wants to bad mouth his progress. IMO Ron Wilson was awful for any of the younger players during is stay. Carlyle will sort all of this out come training camp. Schenn just needs to play old fashion defensive hockey because he is never going to be a goal scorer.

This is total baloney.  The fact that he was picked 5th overall and entered the NHL as a teenager doesn't automatically make him "above average".  As far as Leafs defenseman go, Gunnarsson is the only one I might classify in that category.  Barring a month or two of average play with Kaberle, Schenn has been a complete dud, with glaring defects all over his game.

Actually, Strangelove, your comment is much more out-of-touch than the one you've criticized. 

Gardiner, at the VERY least, would have to be considered above average.

I meant defensively above average (as the previous poster did).  But anyhow, Gardiner is far from being an above average offensive defenseman himself, though it may be the case that he is one day.