Mats Sundin to join Legend's Row

[Deebo]

Gilmour had a few historic seasons for the Leafs, but IMO that does not compare at all with being the team's all-time leader in goals and points.

I think that Gilmour's time as a Leaf is too short to be considered for a statue. 393 games and only 6 seasons (excluding the one shift return in 2003). Everyone else on the row so far had at least 10 seasons. The only other members with under 500 games are Apps, who played most of seasons with 40 game seasons and a few with 60, and goalie Johnny Bower. Everyone else has 696+ games.

 

[Joe S.]

I was swept up in Gilmour mania as much as anyone at the time but the reality is he had 2 out of this world seasons and then returned to his career averages.

Knowing this town he'll be there eventually but I don't personally believes he deserves it.

 

[Kin]

I was swept up in Gilmour mania as much as anyone at the time but the reality is he had 2 out of this world seasons and then returned to his career averages.

And I don't think the context of when he had those seasons can be ignored. A lot of players had ridiculous seasons in 92-93, to the point that Gilmour's 127 points had him tied for 7th in the league.

Gilmour's best season as a Leaf had him finishing 7th in the league in points. His highest finish as a Leaf was 4th. Sundin's best season as a Leaf had him finishing 7th in the league in points. His highest finish as a Leaf was 4th.

 

[RobDM]

Just saw Rob on TV in the Sundin interview scrum. 

The camera never gets my good side.

Oh wait, I don't have a good side.

 

[Kin]

Even though I agree with Mats Sundin getting a spot on legend's row, I don't get the whole, "Gilmour and Clark not worthy of the honour."

Doug Gilmour still holds the record for most points in a season by any Leaf ever and is the last one to ever win hardware for the team with the Selke trophy. How does that not fit into the definition of 'legend'?.............Mats never did that in all the extended time he was here.

I remember when Wendel Clark was drafted. My brother still has the newspaper clipping of the day. To say that what he brought to a fan base that had absolutely ZERO to cheer about for years, is now suddenly worth less than what Mats did is quite frankly..........just stupid.

I'm not bringing this up to knock Mats Sundin as I think he deserves what was given to him but don't tell me or anyone who's actually watched this team a little longer than some of you, that he was more deserving than others, or that those others aren't deserving, because of your criteria.

Your criteria, to say the least, is way off and I'm sure Mats himself would agree with that.

I think the criteria the majority of people, including the people making the selections, are using is a pretty simple and straightforward one. Namely, it's trying to identify the best players in Maple Leafs history who spent the majority of their careers as Maple Leafs. Sundin is a pretty easy qualifier on both counts. It's hard for me to see what's "way off" or even mildly controversial about that.

I was a Leafs fan through both the Clark and Gilmour eras and I'm pretty comfortable with that. Gilmour was a Leaf for 26% of his career and while Clark was extraordinarily fun to watch, I can separate that from the sort of greatness they want to represent.

 

[jdh1]

Even though I agree with Mats Sundin getting a spot on legend's row, I don't get the whole, "Gilmour and Clark not worthy of the honour."

Doug Gilmour still holds the record for most points in a season by any Leaf ever and is the last one to ever win hardware for the team with the Selke trophy. How does that not fit into the definition of 'legend'?.............Mats never did that in all the extended time he was here.

I remember when Wendel Clark was drafted. My brother still has the newspaper clipping of the day. To say that what he brought to a fan base that had absolutely ZERO to cheer about for years, is now suddenly worth less than what Mats did is quite frankly..........just stupid.

I'm not bringing this up to knock Mats Sundin as I think he deserves what was given to him but don't tell me or anyone who's actually watched this team a little longer than some of you, that he was more deserving than others, or that those others aren't deserving, because of your criteria.

Your criteria, to say the least, is way off and I'm sure Mats himself would agree with that.

I think the criteria the majority of people, including the people making the selections, are using is a pretty simple and straightforward one. Namely, it's trying to identify the best players in Maple Leafs history who spent the majority of their careers as Maple Leafs. Sundin is a pretty easy qualifier on both counts. It's hard for me to see what's "way off" or even mildly controversial about that.

I was a Leafs fan through both the Clark and Gilmour eras and I'm pretty comfortable with that. Gilmour was a Leaf for 26% of his career and while Clark was extraordinarily fun to watch, I can separate that from the sort of greatness they want to represent.

To me Wendel Clark represents the heart of a hockey soldier.He put every ounce of his strength in his game and was always one of the best players on the team.Why he would not be included ?is just not right.
I don't want to take away from some of the players selected that won a cup.Pre 1968 players got into the playoffs 2/3rds of the time and only needed to win two playoff series to win the cup.
Wendel won two and three playoff series and still didn't win the cup all because of playoff formats changed.That in no way should be the criteria to keep him out of legends row.

 

[Kin]

To me Wendel Clark represents the heart of a hockey soldier.He put every ounce of his strength in his game and was always one of the best players on the team.Why he would not be included ?is just not right.
I don't want to take away from some of the players selected that won a cup.Pre 1968 players got into the playoffs 2/3rds of the time and only needed to win two playoff series to win the cup.
Wendel won two and three playoff series and still didn't win the cup all because of playoff formats changed.That in no way should be the criteria to keep him out of legends row.

...sure?

I don't think Clark was a better hockey player than anyone selected so far and there are still a bunch of guys not selected(Keon, Mahovlich, McDonald, Horton) who were better at playing hockey. That's the criteria I'm advocating.

EDIT: And just to be clear, the only Leafs jersey I own is a #17, I've watched "All Heart" roughly 8 billion times and for a while Bob Cole saying "Woah! Clark is nailing McSorly" was my ringtone. So this isn't about Clark not registering with me.

 

[jdh1]

To me Wendel Clark represents the heart of a hockey soldier.He put every ounce of his strength in his game and was always one of the best players on the team.Why he would not be included ?is just not right.
I don't want to take away from some of the players selected that won a cup.Pre 1968 players got into the playoffs 2/3rds of the time and only needed to win two playoff series to win the cup.
Wendel won two and three playoff series and still didn't win the cup all because of playoff formats changed.That in no way should be the criteria to keep him out of legends row.

...sure?

I don't think Clark was a better hockey player than anyone selected so far and there are still a bunch of guys not selected(Keon, Mahovlich, McDonald, Horton) who were better at playing hockey. That's the criteria I'm advocating.

I think George Armstrong was a good player that was fortunate to be on some Leaf teams that won the cup.To say that he was better than Wendel is a bit much.

I do agree with you on the other players you mentioned as being worthy to be on legends row.

 

[Kin]

I think George Armstrong was a good player that was fortunate to be on some Leaf teams that won the cup.To say that he was better than Wendel is a bit much.

Good thing I didn't say that then.

 

[jdh1]

I think George Armstrong was a good player that was fortunate to be on some Leaf teams that won the cup.To say that he was better than Wendel is a bit much.

Good thing I didn't say that then.

Would you put Bob Pulford ahead of Wendel?

 

[Highlander]

Keon should and must be next! Ballard screwed him years ago and now we need to honour Dave.  Before he moves on to the next level.

 

[jdh1]

Keon should and must be next! Ballard screwed him years ago and now we need to honour Dave.  Before he moves on to the next level.

Agreed....he was a great player and needs to get his due.

 

[Al14]

Keon should and must be next! Ballard screwed him years ago and now we need to honour Dave.  Before he moves on to the next level.

Agreed....he was a great player and needs to get his due.

I agree too!  Please get Keon up on Legend's Row.

 

[Deebo]

They've tried to honour him in the past, he's refused.

 

[Joe S.]

Didn't Keon show up for the 67 team reunion a few years ago that they honoured on the ice?

 

[Deebo]

Didn't Keon show up for the 67 team reunion a few years ago that they honoured on the ice?

He's been to a couple group events, but I think he has refused a banner unless he gets his number retired, and not honoured like everyone else.

I could be wrong about that though.

 

[L K]

I honestly don't care about Keon anymore.  Ballard screwed him.  Ballard screwed a lot of people.  Keon's response was to turn his back on the fanbase.  He doesn't owe me anything, but I don't need to suck up to Keon just to be able to praise him.  If they offer him the statue and he refuses, just be done with it.  Keon's not special.  He's not more deserving than other players who have graciously taken an honoured number instead of a retired number.

Whether you agree with the Leafs policy or not (personally I don't care, why restrict a number simply because someone wore it years ago, it doesn't lessen a players previous performance) it is what it is.  Keon's not sticking it to Ballard at this point.  He's sticking it to the fans who still want to see him.

 

[Kin]

Whether you agree with the Leafs policy or not (personally I don't care, why restrict a number simply because someone wore it years ago, it doesn't lessen a players previous performance) it is what it is.

The rationale behind retiring numbers is that you then forever cement the public's association of a number with one player. #14 on the Leafs makes me think of Stajan or Andreychuk. #27 on the Leafs makes me think of Shayne Corson. If the only way I knew those numbers were by the banners for the great players I didn't really get to watch play, I wouldn't.

That sense of permanence is a pretty common theme in how people get honoured both in the sports world and elsewhere. If you name, say, a park after someone I think the honour would be a little lessened if you then named it after someone else in ten years time.

Keon's not sticking it to Ballard at this point.  He's sticking it to the fans who still want to see him.

He's not sticking it to anyone. He's got bad memories of his association with the Franchise and seems to want to be done with that part of his life. I think that if fans really respected him they could at least respect that.

 

[Boston Leaf]

I honestly don't care about Keon anymore.  Ballard screwed him.  Ballard screwed a lot of people.  Keon's response was to turn his back on the fanbase.  He doesn't owe me anything, but I don't need to suck up to Keon just to be able to praise him.  If they offer him the statue and he refuses, just be done with it.  Keon's not special.  He's not more deserving than other players who have graciously taken an honoured number instead of a retired number.

Whether you agree with the Leafs policy or not (personally I don't care, why restrict a number simply because someone wore it years ago, it doesn't lessen a players previous performance) it is what it is.  Keon's not sticking it to Ballard at this point.  He's sticking it to the fans who still want to see him.

I totally agree with this...

 

[OldTimeHockey]

He's not sticking it to anyone. He's got bad memories of his association with the Franchise and seems to want to be done with that part of his life. I think that if fans really respected him they could at least respect that.

Exactly!