Matthew Lombardi update/information thread

[Kin]

If it's not a good to great hockey deal (for one team) it qualifies as at the least, close to a steal (for the other). This is even more the case if Lombardi plays effectively, as was originally stated.

The problem I have with that is that saying a deal is a "steal", to me, implies that one side did better than the other in the deal. But Nashville never went into this deal caring much about the hockey aspect of it. They got rid of Lombardi's salary. For them, that's mission accomplished.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Good luck to the guy, I sincerely hope he can be a success here and more importantly stay healthy. 

 

[Deebo]

The problem I have with that is that saying a deal is a "steal", to me, implies that one side did better than the other in the deal. But Nashville never went into this deal caring much about the hockey aspect of it. They got rid of Lombardi's salary. For them, that's mission accomplished.

To me, when used in this context, "steal" implies that we got something for less than its worth and for whatever reason, Burke did that with this deal.

When, say, a sporting goods store marks a bunch of stuff down to make room for the next seasons stock and I get a $150 hockey stick for $50. Even though the sporting goods store accomplished their mission of cleaing inventory, but I'd still say $50 for the hockey stick is a steal.

 

[Kin]

When, say, a sporting goods store marks a bunch of stuff down to make room for the next seasons stock and I get a $150 hockey stick for $50. Even though the sporting goods store accomplished their mission of cleaing inventory, but I'd still say $50 for the hockey stick is a steal.

I think the problem with that analogy, to move slightly off the competing uses of the word steal, is that the issue here is what the cost really is and what the value really is.

In your analogy you're spending 50 dollars for something theoretically worth 150(unless of course the reason the stick is being cleared out is a good sign that it's not much of a stick). The problem with applying it to the Lombardi trade is that it presupposes that the "cost" of the trade was Lebda/Slaney and that the value you're going to get from Franson/Lombardi is going to amount to that 150 dollar hockey stick. The problem there is that Lebda/Slaney had little if anything to do with the cost of acquiring those two players as Slaney is a minor prospect at best and, judging from the buyout, it's safe to say Nashville would have preferred not to have gotten Lebda at all.

The "cost" in this trade is, pretty inarguably, the Leafs' willingness to take on Lombardi's contract. That's where the issue of cost/value gets murky. Assuming the team gets nothing from Lombardi is Franson worth seven million dollars over two years? That has to be considered in two ways. The first is the raw dollars and cents aspect and the second is what cap implications it may have.

Going back to our marked down 150 dollar hockey stick, the cap has to represent some sort of monthly or yearly spending allowance. The hockey stick being a good buy has to be weighed against other ways that money might be spent. The dollars and cents thing may be meaningless to us as Leafs fans but it's a real consideration that just about every other NHL team has and affects the value of players.

I don't know that there's a ton of teams who would make the deal with Nashville for comparable players. Most teams are either too cash strapped themselves or are bumping the cap because of the quality on their clubs. That's the other problem with the analogy. Money, and cap space, doesn't have a consistent value in the NHL. The 50 you're spending on your hockey stick means different things to different people. To you, a 100 dollar discount on a hockey stick makes for a great bargain. To someone else it may mean 50 more dollars than they can afford to spend on a stick and to someone else it may be a waste of 50 bucks because you'll still have an inferior stick. I'm sure there are a lot of teams who looked at the deal and said "the Leafs may have to pay Lombardi seven million dollars and only get Franson in return?" and some that looked at it and said that Franson wasn't a big enough incentive for what Lombardi could do to their cap situation. Objectively, I don't know it's a great deal free of context.

Understand, I like the trade. I think it's a good trade from the Leafs' perspective because they're one of the very few teams who has the money/cap space to do this. That doesn't necessarily make it a good value though. To me a better analogy might be a very wealthy person spending a thousand dollars on a shirt. The extent to which any such luxury is ever a "good value" is debatable. That said, if spending a thousand dollars doesn't mean much to you and you really like how you look in it then it may be the right purchase for you.

 

[Deebo]

On the day the deal was made, Burke said he expected Lomabrdi to play. So while assuming a team would get nothing from Lombardi serves your position, I'm not sure it's fair assumption.

Burke found a cash strapped team that wasn't willing to take risk on a talented, but injured player with an uninsured contract and as a result was able to accquire him and another useful player for next to nothing. If the Preds were able to take the risk on Lombardi or the contract was insured, they would not have made the deal, but their situation required them to put a sale tag on the player and Burke took advantage.

I understand where you're coming from, but from a Leaf perspective, this deal was a no-brainer and frankly that's really the only perspective I care about when evaluating the deal. Good for nashville that they were able to find a taker for Lombardi but again if all things were equal, they don't make the deal and we were able to benefit from their situation.

 

[Kin]

On the day the deal was made, Burke said he expected Lomabrdi to play. So while assuming a team would get nothing from Lombardi serves your position, I'm not sure it's fair assumption.

Well, Burke's obviously going to say something along those lines. If he'd said "We're pretty sure Lombardi won't play" it would have been the Kolzig thing all over again.

Either way assuming Lombardi doesn't play doesn't really help my argument I don't think. There's a potential upside(he contributes) and a downside(he counts against the cap and doesn't contribute much) to him playing. Him not playing was just sort of the assumption that seemed prevalent here when the deal got made.

Even if Lombardi plays and contributes I think my argument remains more or less the same though.

Burke found a cash strapped team that wasn't willing to take risk on a talented, but injured player with an uninsured contract and as a result was able to accquire him and another useful player for next to nothing. If the Preds were able to take the risk on Lombardi or the contract was insured, they would not have made the deal, but their situation required them to put a sale tag on the player and Burke took advantage.

I understand where you're coming from, but from a Leaf perspective, this deal was a no-brainer and frankly that's really the only perspective I care about when evaluating the deal. Good for nashville that they were able to find a taker for Lombardi but again if all things were equal, they don't make the deal and we were able to benefit from their situation.

Again, I'm not arguing against the fact that it was a good move for the Leafs to make, it was. But only in the very narrow, Leafs-specific context where they actually don't care about money. It's like one of those billionaires who spends millions on trying to balloon across the world or getting shot into space. Those are probably really cool things to do if the money is meaningless. But the extent to which they're great values or that they're somehow pulling one over on someone, well, I don't think that's entirely true. To use maybe a more hockey related comparison this would be like if the Leafs had signed a FA pre-lockout by offering him the most money out of anyone(So Mogilny maybe). Good move that improved the hockey team, If that's where it begins and ends, I'm with you. But nobody would have hailed it as some sort of act of managerial brilliance to throw tons of money at someone.

 

[cw]

8/04/2005 Philadelphia Flyers traded Jeremy Roenick and a 3rd round selection in 2006 to the Los Angeles Kings for future considerations.

That deal struck me as one of the first under the new CBA where cap space was regarded as an asset (that the Flyers were in short supply of). In terms of hockey talent alone, ignoring Roenick's contract, the deal was absurd - having to 'pay' the Kings a 3rd round pick to take Roenick's talent. Prior to the new CBA, most of the trades we saw were hockey talent asset for hockey talent asset - none in the way of salary dumps as crazy as Roenick's that I can recall.

It's the money and cap space aspects factored in that are making some deals under this new CBA more difficult to discuss.

In the pure hockey talent assessment of the trade, it is a 'steal' because the Leafs have a NHL talent in Franson and maybe some games with Lombardi while the Preds effectively have no NHL talent in return with the buyout of Lebda as Slaney is very likely to remain in the minors. The Leafs got something in NHL hockey talent while giving up effectively no NHL hockey talent.

If the Leafs had signed Brad Richards, they wouldn't have had the cap space to blow on the Lombardi deal.

When the dollars get factored in, I'm not sure spending $6 mil for Franson's rights (if Lombardi is unable to play or never able to regain his form) is "worth" it. That remains to be seen. Franson may wind up as a dime-a-dozen 6th dman that can be picked up in any UFA summer season (see UFA Hannan for $1 mil to the Flames for example). $6 mil could buy some good college UFAs prospects or beef up scouting or outbid the Flames for Hannan/UFA dman so it might be argued some day that the Leafs could have spent their excess money more wisely and as much as they're flush with cash, they have a budget and financial limits.

It's certainly not so much of a 'steal' yet when money gets factored in. Time will tell. But as the Leafs aren't as concerned about money and they had spare cap space "inventory" for this season after losing the Richards sweepstakes, it certainly made some sense as something for them to try.

I give Burke credit for his creativity in putting together such a deal. I really appreciate his abilities in this area. But overall, all assets considered, I think it's premature to call it a steal.

 

[Tigger]

I agree it's premature but going back to what Zee said if Lombardi can play then it's a steal ( though not of the century ).

Wow, two pages on the subject of what is or isn't a steal, hello summertime!

 

[Corn Flake]

I agree it's premature but going back to what Zee said if Lombardi can play then it's a steal ( though not of the century ).

Wow, two pages on the subject of what is or isn't a steal, hello summertime!

If Lombardi returns to form, the Leafs will have added a very useful asset up front and have a legit "poor man's 2nd line centre" or a solid 3rd line centre.  I still say he was a key part of the Flames best years not long ago and was the first of the big mistakes Sutter made that was the beginning of the end for that team's run. 

Lombardi just flies out there.  I think he gives the Leafs the ability to put three really good lines together, and while the top six may lack another truly elite forward, it has balance and Lombardi could really help round it out.

 

[Zee]

I agree it's premature but going back to what Zee said if Lombardi can play then it's a steal ( though not of the century ).

Wow, two pages on the subject of what is or isn't a steal, hello summertime!

Can I get a "hell yeah!"?

 

[Fletch]

I agree it's premature but going back to what Zee said if Lombardi can play then it's a steal ( though not of the century ).

Wow, two pages on the subject of what is or isn't a steal, hello summertime!

Can I get a "hell yeah!"?

 

[Damian]

lol

 

[cw]

Lombardi Making Steady Progress
Wednesday, August 17, 2011
in steady, subtle way, the question of Lombardi?s status as a Maple Leaf seems to have shifted from if toward when
...
?I believe in setting goals and reporting to camp has always been what I was aiming for,? he (Lombardi) said.

Which is a good positive attitude and provides some hope for him being able to resume his career.

?Since October I really haven?t been able to do anything that would get my heart rate up. I?m not doing any heavy weightlifting but now I am able to a little bit that?s more sports-specific"

With all due respect, this talk of him coming to camp and being ready for the start of the season is pure hogwash. He's sat for nearly a year not able to do anything for his fitness until very recently. When he was traded in July, he hadn't been able to do anything to that point in time except some physio in a pool. And often, with this type of injury, there are setbacks - see Mark Savard or even Sidney Crosby (who is in a much better situation with his concussion but still questionable to start the season). 

Lombardi, if he's ever cleared to play by a doctor, is months away in my opinion. Months. He's not going to just snap his fingers after being virtually completely idle for nearly a year and be in world class pro hockey shape in a few weeks. I appreciate goals and all that but with the Toronto media and Leafs fans, I think Lombardi and the team have done themselves a bit of a disservice by giving any credence to the notion he's close to starting the season. The facts from his own words don't bear him or the team out.

 

[dappleganger]

I think it brings up another question, what kind of shape is he going to be in?

I don't hockey is even the realm of possibility until he can work out properly and regularly.

 

[Zee]

I agree it's premature but going back to what Zee said if Lombardi can play then it's a steal ( though not of the century ).

Wow, two pages on the subject of what is or isn't a steal, hello summertime!

Can I get a "hell yeah!"?

Can I get a WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!!??

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Lombardi Making Steady Progress
Wednesday, August 17, 2011
in steady, subtle way, the question of Lombardi?s status as a Maple Leaf seems to have shifted from if toward when
...
?I believe in setting goals and reporting to camp has always been what I was aiming for,? he (Lombardi) said.

Which is a good positive attitude and provides some hope for him being able to resume his career.

?Since October I really haven?t been able to do anything that would get my heart rate up. I?m not doing any heavy weightlifting but now I am able to a little bit that?s more sports-specific"

With all due respect, this talk of him coming to camp and being ready for the start of the season is pure hogwash. He's sat for nearly a year not able to do anything for his fitness until very recently. When he was traded in July, he hadn't been able to do anything to that point in time except some physio in a pool. And often, with this type of injury, there are setbacks - see Mark Savard or even Sidney Crosby (who is in a much better situation with his concussion but still questionable to start the season). 

Lombardi, if he's ever cleared to play by a doctor, is months away in my opinion. Months. He's not going to just snap his fingers after being virtually completely idle for nearly a year and be in world class pro hockey shape in a few weeks. I appreciate goals and all that but with the Toronto media and Leafs fans, I think Lombardi and the team have done themselves a bit of a disservice by giving any credence to the notion he's close to starting the season. The facts from his own words don't bear him or the team out.

He could still report to camp though, right?  Hasn't that been what we've been hearing, that he plans to report to camp?

Doesn't mean he'll be close to game ready.

 

[Tigger]

Yeah, December was the earliest I ever imagined Matt coming back, if at all, and that might be a leetle optimistic.

 

[maplesyrup]

Yeah, December was the earliest I ever imagined Matt coming back, if at all, and that might be a leetle optimistic.

Maybe a "free" trade deadline acquisition (of sorts.)

 

[Corn Flake]

I think it brings up another question, what kind of shape is he going to be in?

I don't hockey is even the realm of possibility until he can work out properly and regularly.

Most players who return from long-term injuries like this seem to take about 6 months to get fully up to speed, past the physical and mental side of returning from serious injury. But if he does get rolling at the start of camp it might speed up a bit. 

 

[L K]

Even if he can physically get on the ice and skate with the team during warm-up type drills rather than the actual physical contact/work you like a dog to see your fitness level, stuff it might just be a huge motivator for him to get back on the ice. 

It's really hard not to be rooting for Lombardi to make it back.