Most improved, biggest surprise so far

[Corn Flake]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

the odd rough night?

But when they can't handle a line and Kadri's line can, that tells me they are more than just a little bit off.  I haven't really said it's a serious problem, just saying it's a bit of a concern I'm observing right now.  Hopefully they are back to being as solid as they have been most of the way so far.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

the odd rough night?

But when they can't handle a line and Kadri's line can, that tells me they are more than just a little bit off. 

But that's why people talk about things like quality of competition - Grabovski and Kulemin are ranked 1 and 2 in Leafs forwards in that metric.  I'm not seeing the issues with Grabovski, or the line.  He's not a possession star like he was last season, but he's being utilized in a different role.  Do we think teams are lighting up his line defensively?  Or are we upset that he's not scoring at a higher pace?  Kadri is far down the list in the competition he faces, so I don't see the comparison or think it is valid.

The team is having success and I truly do think the Grabovski line is a big part of that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

Hart and Selke trophies, of course.

All I asked is an explanation, I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

 

[TML fan]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

Hart and Selke trophies, of course.

All I asked is an explanation, I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

Well for starters, your question didn't address any of the main issues I brought up about Grabovski, but since you asked, they are making close to 10 million dollars. I expect a hell of a lot more than 16 points, -3 and from two guys who think they've earned the right to get paid that much.

It's not Grabovski's fault that Carlyle has asked him to play a defensive role, and I applaud Grabovski for embracing it, but that's my issue. He doesn't fit in anymore. The Leafs are now paying him 2nd line money to be a 3rd line centre. If that's his new role, then I expect him to be the best 3rd line centre in the NHL. He asked for that money. Now he has to earn it.

 

[Kin]

I don't know if expecting significantly more production from a winger making 2.8 million is all that realistic considering the role he's being used in.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

Hart and Selke trophies, of course.

All I asked is an explanation, I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

Well for starters, your question didn't address any of the main issues I brought up about Grabovski, but since you asked, they are making close to 10 million dollars. I expect a hell of a lot more than 16 points, -3 and from two guys who think they've earned the right to get paid that much.

It was a question to get clarification on a lot of vague criticisms such as 'looks lost' - looks lost how - offensively, defensively, uninterested, etc.

I appreciate you elaborating on it in a nice way.

EDIT:

It's not Grabovski's fault that Carlyle has asked him to play a defensive role, and I applaud Grabovski for embracing it, but that's my issue. He doesn't fit in anymore. The Leafs are now paying him 2nd line money to be a 3rd line centre. If that's his new role, then I expect him to be the best 3rd line centre in the NHL. He asked for that money. Now he has to earn it.

I think this is where I was confused.  So you're not as upset with Grabovski's play, but upset that after he got that contract he's now being used in a different manner?  He got that contract when he was being utilized in a completely different way, and I think he's done pretty admirably in his role.  Carlyle has him taking these big responsibilities because he's probably the most competent two-way forward (with Kulemin as well).

The contract I can certainly see issues with considering his usage now.

 

[TML fan]

I don't know if expecting significantly more production from a winger making 2.8 million is all that realistic considering the role he's being used in.

Perhaps, but I don't really have an issue with Kulemin.

 

[TML fan]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

Hart and Selke trophies, of course.

All I asked is an explanation, I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

Well for starters, your question didn't address any of the main issues I brought up about Grabovski, but since you asked, they are making close to 10 million dollars. I expect a hell of a lot more than 16 points, -3 and from two guys who think they've earned the right to get paid that much.

It was a question to get clarification on a lot of vague criticisms such as 'looks lost' - looks lost how - offensively, defensively, uninterested, etc.

I appreciate you elaborating on it in a nice way.

I thought it was pretty straightforward. No chemistry with anyone, ie: blind drop passes to nobody in his own end. Reversing the puck to unprepared defenders. His lack of offensive production. He looks like he doesn't fit in. Shouldn't be playing a defensive role, but getting outplayed to the point that they can't put him in an offensive role. Lost.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Shouldn't be playing a defensive role, but getting outplayed to the point that they can't put him in an offensive role. Lost.

How is he getting outplayed to the point they can't put him in an offensive role?  He's been played in a defensive role the entire season, something like 70% of his shifts off face-offs start defensively.

Maybe he shouldn't be playing a solely defensive role due to what he's being paid, but he's certainly proven capable of playing that role.

 

[TML fan]

Shouldn't be playing a defensive role, but getting outplayed to the point that they can't put him in an offensive role. Lost.

How is he getting outplayed to the point they can't put him in an offensive role?  He's been played in a defensive role the entire season, something like 70% of his shifts off face-offs start defensively.

Maybe he shouldn't be playing a solely defensive role due to what he's being paid, but he's certainly proven capable of playing that role.

Perhaps that's because the other team generally starts their best line on offensive zone faceoffs, and Carlyle loves line matching?

Kadri has outplayed him since game 1. Come to think of it, I wonder if Carlyle ever asked him to play a defensive role?Wasn't the goal in camp to go with three scoring lines because the Leafs didn't have a traditional shut down group? Perhaps we have simply assigned Grabovski a "defensive role" because he's getting nothing done offensively?

Of course he's capable. He's a good player. I like Grabovski. I think he is totally wrong for this team and doesn't fit in anymore, but I like him.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing.  I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

 

[TML fan]

What are you expecting out of Grabovski (and Kulemin, too) playing against the toughest competition?

Hart and Selke trophies, of course.

All I asked is an explanation, I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

Well for starters, your question didn't address any of the main issues I brought up about Grabovski, but since you asked, they are making close to 10 million dollars. I expect a hell of a lot more than 16 points, -3 and from two guys who think they've earned the right to get paid that much.

It was a question to get clarification on a lot of vague criticisms such as 'looks lost' - looks lost how - offensively, defensively, uninterested, etc.

I appreciate you elaborating on it in a nice way.

EDIT:

It's not Grabovski's fault that Carlyle has asked him to play a defensive role, and I applaud Grabovski for embracing it, but that's my issue. He doesn't fit in anymore. The Leafs are now paying him 2nd line money to be a 3rd line centre. If that's his new role, then I expect him to be the best 3rd line centre in the NHL. He asked for that money. Now he has to earn it.

I think this is where I was confused.  So you're not as upset with Grabovski's play, but upset that after he got that contract he's now being used in a different manner?  He got that contract when he was being utilized in a completely different way, and I think he's done pretty admirably in his role.  Carlyle has him taking these big responsibilities because he's probably the most competent two-way forward (with Kulemin as well).

The contract I can certainly see issues with considering his usage now.

I'm not upset with Grabovski period. I'm surprised at how quickly he became an outcast on this team, in my opinion. The role he is playing can't justify his contract, yes. That is one small issue I have with him, but also I find the apparent lack of chemistry with his teammates disturbing. It just looks like he doesn't belong anymore.

 

[Strangelove]

Shouldn't be playing a defensive role, but getting outplayed to the point that they can't put him in an offensive role. Lost.

How is he getting outplayed to the point they can't put him in an offensive role?  He's been played in a defensive role the entire season, something like 70% of his shifts off face-offs start defensively.

Maybe he shouldn't be playing a solely defensive role due to what he's being paid, but he's certainly proven capable of playing that role.

You've been making excuses for him all season based on a made-up quality of competition stat, but he does look lost out there, in a way that Kulemin and the other rotating winger often do not.  He's not particularly good defensively and has been giving the puck away constantly, which is a lot of the reason that line spends so much time running around in their own end.

It's not the amount he's paid that bothers me, but the way he's playing.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing. I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

If you think playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey amounts to the same contribution that Kadri has made, well frankly your wrong.  Grabo's been placed in his role largely because he doesn't seem capable of contributing in any other way this season (including PP minutes).  He's having a bad year.  Kadri is not.

 

[TML fan]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing.  I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

Assume for a minute that I think plus minus is an indicator of anything, and I would have to disagree. I also think that Kadri's line spends more time in the other team's end, which in my opinion makes them a better defensive unit by being a better offensive unit.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Grabovski is being paid to be an offensive player and has been relegated to being a purely defensive player. The Leafs simply can't afford to pay Grabovski that kind of money to play defence.

He needs to be better offensively, regardless of who he's playing against. Give me Grabovski at 3 or so mil to play defence and you wouldnt hear a peep from me. This is the point you are consistently missing. I'm not knocking Grabovski's defensive play. He's been just fine. I'm knocking the fact that he is getting paid for non-existent offensive production. Tyler Bozak may only do 1/5 the job, but he'll do it for 1/5 the salary.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

You've been making excuses for him all season based on a made-up quality of competition stat

Have you taken the time to look into the history of this statistic, what it is based on, and how it is used?  If so, what are your issues with it?  I'm by no means an expert on it, and I rely on others online who devote their time to analyzing these types of things in order to better understand it.

There are lots and lots of people out there who believe in them, and more mainstream media are starting to use them in their analysis as well: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mikhail-grabovski-the-leafs-55-million-checking-centre/article8748765/

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing. I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

If you think playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey amounts to the same contribution that Kadri has made, well frankly your wrong.  Grabo's been placed in his role largely because he doesn't seem capable of contributing in any other way this season (including PP minutes).  He's having a bad year.  Kadri is not.

No, he's been placed in that role since the season began.  And I'm not sure what you're basing that he's playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey on, save that you've seen him turn the puck over.  I've seen every player make multiple poor defensive plays.  What can you point to to say Grabovski has been bad?  Otherwise, we'll just have to have a difference of opinion on it.

 

[Strangelove]

You've been making excuses for him all season based on a made-up quality of competition stat

Have you taken the time to look into the history of this statistic, what it is based on, and how it is used?  If so, what are your issues with it?  I'm by no means an expert on it, and I rely on others online who devote their time to analyzing these types of things in order to better understand it.

There are lots and lots of people out there who believe in them, and more mainstream media are starting to use them in their analysis as well: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mikhail-grabovski-the-leafs-55-million-checking-centre/article8748765/

I don't doubt that he's playing against stiff competition. I just believe he's playing poorly against that competition, in ways, like I said before, that his linemates are not.  If you have to dig deep to a statistic of questionable significance to justify a statement ("he's contributing significantly") that all other statistics and visual evidence suggest is false, then in my opinion you're stretching the bounds of credulity.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing. I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

If you think playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey amounts to the same contribution that Kadri has made, well frankly your wrong.  Grabo's been placed in his role largely because he doesn't seem capable of contributing in any other way this season (including PP minutes).  He's having a bad year.  Kadri is not.

No, he's been placed in that role since the season began.  And I'm not sure what you're basing that he's playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey on, save that you've seen him turn the puck over.  I've seen every player make multiple poor defensive plays.  What can you point to to say Grabovski has been bad?  Otherwise, we'll just have to have a difference of opinion on it.

I can point to the way he's playing - the way he's moving the puck, using he's teammates, checking his man.  And, if you want, I can point to his plus/minus relative to other players on the team.

 

[leafplasma]

Yes, other teams start their top lines in the offensive zone, but that's what I mean and why I'm trying to put Grabovski's game in context - he's playing extremely tough minutes, and if he doesn't play them which line is going to?  The 1st and 3rd lines are producing offensively, but they're not defensively sound lines.

But Kadri has "outplayed" him because he's facing easier competition.  And that is if you only consider being outplayed to be a solely offensive thing. I don't want to say either player has "outplayed" the other, both are contributing significantly to the team, just in different areas.

If you think playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey amounts to the same contribution that Kadri has made, well frankly your wrong.  Grabo's been placed in his role largely because he doesn't seem capable of contributing in any other way this season (including PP minutes).  He's having a bad year.  Kadri is not.

No, he's been placed in that role since the season began.  And I'm not sure what you're basing that he's playing mediocre to bad defensive hockey on, save that you've seen him turn the puck over.  I've seen every player make multiple poor defensive plays.  What can you point to to say Grabovski has been bad?  Otherwise, we'll just have to have a difference of opinion on it.

I can point to the way he's playing - the way he's moving the puck, using he's teammates, checking his man.  And, if you want, I can point to his plus/minus relative to other players on the team.

Plus minus if you have to use that stat, well I don't think you can complain if your shutdown line can hold the fort at a -1 while playing against the other teams top line.  If you can come out even at the end of the night your going to win a lot of hockey games.  Let the Kessel and Kadri lines score your goals and of course their plus/minus will reflect that offensive output in comparison to Grabs.