Moving Grabbo and Kuli

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

I like Grabbo as player and has funny interviews so I hope he plays much better next season.  I would rather another top D man come in instead of a big center as I thought the Leafs speed up the middle is why we competed better against Boston than NY and Pitts did.  Im not against signing Bozak either as he does have a good skill set.  You make a lot of sense with your comments regardless.

If we could just get interviews to win us more hockey games...

 

[princedpw]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

It's not always clear how to "number" lines.  Did Kadri play on the 3rd line this year?  If so, I liked it.  I'd be happy to get a good center like Weiss or LeCavalier to put next to Phil, retain Grabbo and put Kadri on a "3rd line" (or at least not with Phil) where he can chew up inferior opposition and win us games like last year.

No matter what we do, I think, there are going to be a lot of teams that are going to have equal or better 1st lines than us so I think we'll need to win our fair share of games by having some balanced scoring.

 

[Seymore Pucks]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

It's not always clear how to "number" lines.  Did Kadri play on the 3rd line this year?  If so, I liked it.  I'd be happy to get a good center like Weiss or LeCavalier to put next to Phil, retain Grabbo and put Kadri on a "3rd line" (or at least not with Phil) where he can chew up inferior opposition and win us games like last year.

No matter what we do, I think, there are going to be a lot of teams that are going to have equal or better 1st lines than us so I think we'll need to win our fair share of games by having some balanced scoring.

I have no problem with the current rooster at center other than Kadri sucks at faceoffs.  I think the most pressing issue is getting another top 4 d man.  We spent to much time in our own zone and Phanuaf would only get better if some of the load was taken off him.

 

[mr grieves]

If the Leafs can land a bonifide C for the 1st line and retain Bozak, I would would like Bozak to have the role of shutting down the oppositions best line.  Surely Grabs has more of a offensive upside than Bozak?  But then where do you put Kadri.

If you retain Bozak for the checking line and land a top center, you absolutely have to buy Grabovski out. But that most likely won't happen before the window closes July 4th, so Bozak is likely either the #1 center again, or he's gone somewhere else IMO.

Even if Bozak's gone somewhere else, and better 1C option is found, things are still interesting. If the Leafs somehow land Stastny or sign Lecavalier, you'd soon have ~$15m down the middle, and I'd think you'd probably want to move one of Kadri or Grabs in the next year or so.

Most would probably want to hold onto Kadri, and, on their merits, I would too. But Grabbo's return wouldn't be very good. Many think he'd have to be a buyout candidate. Kadri, on the other hand, could attract what on the trade market? With a pick and quality prospect, a top-pairing -- maybe even Norris-worthy -- defenseman? 

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

The whole idea in moving Grabo though, is on the premise that he is not going to play at the level of what the leafs are paying him this year. Nonis seems pretty clear that he's targeting a top line center this summer, which puts Bozak and Grabbo's  job at risk IMO.

Kadri is the future, so I wouldn't move him. I get that you'll receive more for him and that it's an easier trade to make, but I also think it's counter productive to what we want to accomplish.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

It's not always clear how to "number" lines.  Did Kadri play on the 3rd line this year?  If so, I liked it.  I'd be happy to get a good center like Weiss or LeCavalier to put next to Phil, retain Grabbo and put Kadri on a "3rd line" (or at least not with Phil) where he can chew up inferior opposition and win us games like last year.

No matter what we do, I think, there are going to be a lot of teams that are going to have equal or better 1st lines than us so I think we'll need to win our fair share of games by having some balanced scoring.

I said third line minutes as opposed to the third line. Kadri was on the third line though, if you go by the minutes he played some nights. His last half of the shortened season wasn't as strong as the first half IMO. My point was more that you have to play him more for him to improve, which is what you want.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay Grabbo to play a checking role, you saw how that worked out last season. So unless you want to award Kadri the top line job and play Grabbo on his normal second line, fine, but I don't think Kadri is quite ready to run the top line yet. So changes need to happen this summer IMO.

 

[slapshot]

I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay Grabbo to play a checking role, you saw how that worked out last season. So unless you want to award Kadri the top line job and play Grabbo on his normal second line, fine, but I don't think Kadri is quite ready to run the top line yet. So changes need to happen this summer IMO.
[/quote]

This was pretty much my point for starting this thread. If the Leafs truly want to upgrade, then they need to target a better first line centre, not simply shuffle what they have (and probably lose Bozak in the process). Kadri first line and Grabbo centre (and Bozak gone), I don't think is an upgrade. In fact, it's probably a step backwards.
The Leafs need an upgraded 1st line center, Kadri at two and someone at three. I'd still prefer Bozak there at about 4-4.5 million than Grabbo there at 5.5 million. If that is to be a more checking role, I think Bozak could adapt better, and already is better on faceoffs, which is a pretty key part of the defensive role.

If Grabbo stays, I think it would have to be as a "productive," top six winger to justify that money. I mean look at the Bruins putting Sequin on the market because they can't justify a $5 million contract on the third line.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

This was pretty much my point for starting this thread. If the Leafs truly want to upgrade, then they need to target a better first line centre, not simply shuffle what they have (and probably lose Bozak in the process). Kadri first line and Grabbo centre (and Bozak gone), I don't think is an upgrade. In fact, it's probably a step backwards.
The Leafs need an upgraded 1st line center, Kadri at two and someone at three. I'd still prefer Bozak there at about 4-4.5 million than Grabbo there at 5.5 million. If that is to be a more checking role, I think Bozak could adapt better, and already is better on faceoffs, which is a pretty key part of the defensive role.

If Grabbo stays, I think it would have to be as a "productive," top six winger to justify that money. I mean look at the Bruins putting Sequin on the market because they can't justify a $5 million contract on the third line.

Well, if you play Bozak on the third line, even at 4-4.5, you're essentially doing the same thing you did with Grabbo. If Bozak plays the third line, you'd want him to come in about 3-3.5 million a season, which is most likely not going to happen. Also, Bozak works well with Kessel, so he's probably top line or bust.

I really think the Leafs have to land a top center or a third line checking center to make it happen. If they go after a third line guy, Grabbo would definitely have to step up his offensive play, or the whole thing kind of sucks. This is why I think Nonis is truly after a considerable upgrade for the top line.

 

[Andy007]

Still would love to see what he can do centering Kessel. Not sure what it could hurt, particularly since the 1st line centre role has been such a weakness for the team. The way he attacks and protects the puck offensively would give Kessel a ton of space; I really think it could work.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Still would love to see what he can do centering Kessel. Not sure what it could hurt, particularly since the 1st line centre role has been such a weakness for the team. The way he attacks and protects the puck offensively would give Kessel a ton of space; I really think it could work.

Dave Nonis is the one that can tell us how the management feels about him going forward and what their intentions are this season. He'll probably get another year to bounce back and earn the top role, but if Nonis lands a top guy, all cards are off the table.

 

[mr grieves]

Still would love to see what he can do centering Kessel. Not sure what it could hurt, particularly since the 1st line centre role has been such a weakness for the team. The way he attacks and protects the puck offensively would give Kessel a ton of space; I really think it could work.

Me too. Apart from things like 'chemistry,' it seems there's no good reason not to. In years past, I got the impression the idea was to spread the offense by breaking up the team's best center and its best winger. But it's clear Grabbo isn't good enough to carry a line, and Kadri did pretty well opening up space for a lot of guys last season (MacArthur, Lupul, Kuli). So, I'd be curious to see Kessel and Grabbo tried again. The latter has the speed and zone entry talent to complement Kessel. Over the last three seasons, they've only played together about 270 minutes, which isn't much of an experiment. 

 

[Tigger]

With Kessel being pretty good distributing the puck and Grabbo's willingness to bang, shoot and go to the net, the notion of really trying them out together seems fairly plausible.

 

[slapshot]

With Bolland now in the mix, it comes down to who Nonis wants more, Bozak or Grabo? Not enough room for both. If by long shot Leafs get Vinnie, won't be room for either of them. But I'd try to sign Bozak for under 4m and buy out Grabbo. It's ridiculous that he makes more than Kessel and Lupul.

 

[mr grieves]

With Bolland now in the mix, it comes down to who Nonis wants more, Bozak or Grabo? Not enough room for both.

Yeah, but it doesn't come down to who he wants more. He's got Grabbo -- signed for the next 4 years -- and Bozak's UFA. Given that Grabbo's already under contract and coming off a poor season, I don't know why you'd choose now to move him when that means nothing return, or why you'd even bother to if the big plan is to overpay Tyler Bozak, who would be -- from both a cap standpoint and a talent one -- a considerable step down.

Bolland in the mix pushes Grabbo & Kadri up into the top two center spots and Bozak out.

 

[caver]

Agreed MG. That is the logic that applies here. And Grabbo should not be defined by last season. Nonis said as much today. Things change a bit if they do land another center but I think Vinny is a long shot.

 

[slapshot]

I guess we can agree to disagree. To me Grabbo was a vastly overpaid 3rd line centre while Bozak was an unpaid 1st line centre. The playoffs was supposed to show who was of value.
I saw Bozak taking and winning the key draws, killing penalties, making plays. Grab did a lot of running around, but I didn,'t see him accomplish much...sorry I'd take Bozak any day.

 

[moon111]

The way they used Grabs, they might as well put him on defense.  His role completely changed.  Then again, RC might of looked around, didn't see a Bolland and gave the job to Grabs.  Not to punish Grabs, but to admit Bozak or Kadri weren't up to the task.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The way they used Grabs, they might as well put him on defense.  His role completely changed.  Then again, RC might of looked around, didn't see a Bolland and gave the job to Grabs.  Not to punish Grabs, but to admit Bozak or Kadri weren't up to the task.

Yeah I hope the addition of Bolland frees Grabovski up to play on a scoring line again. Although there has been talk of Bolland playing in the top-6, which kind of worries me. That's where he always had difficulty playing in Chicago, and Grabovski is a much more skilled player.

edit: Although in my fantasy world I'd still prefer trading Grabovski and signing Lecavalier.

 

[mr grieves]

I guess we can agree to disagree. To me Grabbo was a vastly overpaid 3rd line centre while Bozak was an unpaid 1st line centre.

We could agree to that, but you can't have your own facts nor can you cherry pick them.

Outside of a 48 game season, there's only evidence for the first half of that "to me" statement. And, if you look beyond a half season to a large sample that'd be of more predictive value (say, this one plus the last two), Grabbo's a slightly overpaid 2nd line center and Bozak's a... mystery on the first line. Let's call it a woefully unpaid but more woefully underperforming 1st line center.

Now, if you started watching the Leafs in January -- the lockout somehow piqued your interest in what this hockey sport was all about, say -- that conclusion might at least be understandable, but, if not... how do you dismiss several years of performance from both players?

48 games isn't much to judge a career on. That's why no one's suggesting Kadri get paid $6.5m.

The playoffs was supposed to show who was of value.

But oh... Okay. So, you'd like to deal with an even smaller sample than a half season? Okay. What'd you see?

I saw Bozak taking and winning the key draws,

You saw wrong. The Leafs were eaten alive in the faceoff circle.

Face-offs
Bozak -- won 63, lost 85 (42.6%)
Grabovski -- won 44, lost 54 (44.9%)

killing penalties,

You saw wrong. Bozak wasn't relied upon on the PK.

TOI SH (forwards)
McClement  -- 23:28
Kulemin -- 15:44 
Komarov -- 10:31
JVR -- 7:47
Bozak -- 7:20

making plays.

You saw... huh. What did you see? What plays did he make?

His assist, in game 1, was redirecting a Kessel PP pass on net ("Kessel passes it off Bozak" is how the announcer put it), which was picked up by Franson and passed through the crease to JVR.

And his game 5 goal was a really nice breakaway, sure.

What else did he do?

 

[slapshot]

I guess we can agree to disagree. To me Grabbo was a vastly overpaid 3rd line centre while Bozak was an unpaid 1st line centre.

We could agree to that, but you can't have your own facts nor can you cherry pick them.

Outside of a 48 game season, there's only evidence for the first half of that "to me" statement. And, if you look beyond a half season to a large sample that'd be of more predictive value (say, this one plus the last two), Grabbo's a slightly overpaid 2nd line center and Bozak's a... mystery on the first line. Let's call it a woefully unpaid but more woefully underperforming 1st line center.

Now, if you started watching the Leafs in January -- the lockout somehow piqued your interest in what this hockey sport was all about, say -- that conclusion might at least be understandable, but, if not... how do you dismiss several years of performance from both players?

48 games isn't much to judge a career on. That's why no one's suggesting Kadri get paid $6.5m.

The playoffs was supposed to show who was of value.

But oh... Okay. So, you'd like to deal with an even smaller sample than a half season? Okay. What'd you see?

I saw Bozak taking and winning the key draws,

You saw wrong. The Leafs were eaten alive in the faceoff circle.

Face-offs
Bozak -- won 63, lost 85 (42.6%)
Grabovski -- won 44, lost 54 (44.9%)

killing penalties,

You saw wrong. Bozak wasn't relied upon on the PK.

TOI SH (forwards)
McClement  -- 23:28
Kulemin -- 15:44 
Komarov -- 10:31
JVR -- 7:47
Bozak -- 7:20

making plays.

You saw... huh. What did you see? What plays did he make?

His assist, in game 1, was redirecting a Kessel PP pass on net ("Kessel passes it off Bozak" is how the announcer put it), which was picked up by Franson and passed through the crease to JVR.

And his game 5 goal was a really nice breakaway, sure.

What else did he do?

Cherry picking nice...Over the past year and a half, Bozak has more points in fewer games. Yes, he's playing with Kessel but there is obviously a reason for that. Why isn't Grabbo top line center at his rate of pay? Wasn't he practically demoted to third line status?
Ok, so maybe Grabbo had a higher % in face-off over 5 game (sample size). But 1) Bozak was going against Bergeron (tops in the league) most of the time, 2) he was almost always first called upon on the team for defensive zone face-offs 3) he was playing injured 4) Carlyle used him about 30 more times than Grabbo to take draws, about 50 per cent more often.
Grabbo is also making $5.5 million while Bozak was making $1.5 million. People crap all over Phaneuf salary...but I certainly think the difference between what he brings and what Grabbo's brought is more than $1 million in difference.
I'm not saying I dislike Grabbo. He plays hard, but I think he's more of an individualistic type player, better suited to a wing than center. If he can consistently score 25-30 goals, 50-60 points, I'm okay with that. But I doubt that's going to happen. Hope he proves me wrong.