Official Armchair GM Thread 2014-2015 Leafs

[L K]

It's not the best analogy. If you have better one, feel free to share.

The point remains though. I'd have a hard time, if I were coach Carlyle or Leaf management, being angry at Clarkson for doing what he did.

I don't think you need to reduce it to an analogy at all. We all understand the ins and outs of hockey and hockey fightin'.

And in that context it was a really dumb thing to do. If I'm Leafs management I sure as heck am not happy that my big free agent acquisition got suspended for the first 10 games of the season, regardless of why. Those first 10 games are pretty important for a new player getting acclimatized to his new linemates. I wouldn't go so far as to blame Clarkson's lousy season on the suspension but it sure didn't help.

If I'm Carlyle, I'm still upset for not only the above reason but also I think he very much wants to maintain bench discipline and have it be known that whatever "standing up for Kessel" needed to happen would happen with him tapping someone(Orr preferably) on the shoulder the next time they saw Scott on the ice.

The Leafs just couldn't wait that long!

The other thing for me is that if Clarkson was sending a message to Scott, what message was it exactly?  That if he tries to take Kessel's head off, Clarkson will grab his arms and pull him a bit?  How exactly does that prevent Scott from being an idiot again?

Scott stood there laughing at the whole situation that he created.  Message not sent.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Yay!  Kane is being slagged by the  Winnipeg media again.  Time to whip up my new Kane trade.

Lupul, Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart.

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER

FORWARDS

James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
Evander Kane ($5.250m) / Nazem Kadri ($2.900m) / Dustin Byfuglien ($5.200m)
Leo Komarov ($2.950m) / Petri Kontiola ($1.100m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
David Booth ($1.100m) / Mike Santorelli ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.800m)
Troy Bodie ($0.600m) / Daniel Winnik ($1.300m) /
​

DEFENSEMEN

Mark Stuart ($2.625m) / Stephane Robidas ($3.000m)
Jake Gardiner ($4.050m) / Roman Polak ($2.750m)
Morgan Rielly ($0.894m) / Cody Franson ($3.300m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.788m)
​

GOALTENDERS

Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
James Reimer ($2.300m)
​

BUYOUTS
Mike Komisarek ($0.000m)
Mikhail Grabovski ($0.000m)
Tim Gleason ($0.833m)
RETAINED SALARIES (0.29% of upper limit)
Carl Gunnarsson ($0.200m?6.35%)
BONUS OVERAGE
$512,500
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,552,500; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $447,500


On the PP Byfuglien would play RD with Gardiner while Rielly would stick with Franson.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Yay!  Kane is being slagged by the  Winnipeg media again.  Time to whip up my new Kane trade.

Lupul, Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart.

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER

FORWARDS

James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
Evander Kane ($5.250m) / Nazem Kadri ($2.900m) / Dustin Byfuglien ($5.200m)
Leo Komarov ($2.950m) / Petri Kontiola ($1.100m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
David Booth ($1.100m) / Mike Santorelli ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.800m)
Troy Bodie ($0.600m) / Daniel Winnik ($1.300m) /
​

DEFENSEMEN

Mark Stuart ($2.625m) / Stephane Robidas ($3.000m)
Jake Gardiner ($4.050m) / Roman Polak ($2.750m)
Morgan Rielly ($0.894m) / Cody Franson ($3.300m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.788m)
​

GOALTENDERS

Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
James Reimer ($2.300m)
​

BUYOUTS
Mike Komisarek ($0.000m)
Mikhail Grabovski ($0.000m)
Tim Gleason ($0.833m)
RETAINED SALARIES (0.29% of upper limit)
Carl Gunnarsson ($0.200m?6.35%)
BONUS OVERAGE
$512,500
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,552,500; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $447,500


On the PP Byfuglien would play RD with Gardiner while Rielly would stick with Franson.

I'd imagine a realistic deal would more likely involve JVR instead of Lupul and a pretty decent pick coming from the Leafs.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to the deal but I'm not sure it's enough of a win (could be but has lots of room to be a disaster) to give up the assets that would need to be involved (mainly JVR, Holland and what I would imagine would be a 1st).

Kane and Buf (moreso Buf IMO) are tempting though..

 

[Highlander]

Sorry but the Pylon is not going anywhere for a long time. At leat two years as he still factores into the Shanaplan

 

[Corn Flake]

I'd imagine a realistic deal would more likely involve JVR instead of Lupul and a pretty decent pick coming from the Leafs.

Can't see how Leafs would have to give up JVR, a more established, , cheaper, less headace'y version of Kane.  At worst, that would be a straight up 1 for 1 trade, but still feels like the Leafs take on all the risk with not a lot of upside above what JVR already brings.

I like Kane and I would love to take him on, but the price can't be basically a better version of Kane to get him.

 

[bustaheims]

Honestly, the more I see Evander Kane, the more I see him as a younger Lupul with off ice issues. They're roughly the same size, play the same position, were both high draft picks and their year to year production are remarkably similar. Kane hasn't shown himself to be as prone to significant injuries yet (he has had a number of smaller issues already), but, neither did Lupul until he had 3 full NHL seasons under his belt.

 

[Kin]

I think having a really high opinion of Kane relies on two assumptions, neither of which I'm comfortable with. The first is that a player accused of off-ice issues or attitude problems but who then turns those around becomes a significantly better player by virtue of it. I don't buy that. There are lots of athletes who have all sorts of stuff going on to much bigger degrees than Kane and who can still play to their full potential. Even if Kane is a jerk, him turning into not a jerk might make him more valuable from a chemistry standpoint but I don't think that necessarily translates onto the ice.

The second is that I think there's a tendency to look at someone like Kane who scored 30 goals when he was 20 and think his ceiling has to be considerably higher. I don't know that I buy that. Even the best players in the world haven't shown a ton of growth, production wise, since they were 20. Crosby scored at 1.36 ppg at 20 and was at 1.3 last year. Ovechkin, Stamkos, Malkin, Toews...none have seen enormous jumps in their production since their first few years in the league. Sure, some players bloom late but a lot bloom early too.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I'd imagine a realistic deal would more likely involve JVR instead of Lupul and a pretty decent pick coming from the Leafs.

Can't see how Leafs would have to give up JVR, a more established, , cheaper, less headace'y version of Kane.  At worst, that would be a straight up 1 for 1 trade, but still feels like the Leafs take on all the risk with not a lot of upside above what JVR already brings.

I like Kane and I would love to take him on, but the price can't be basically a better version of Kane to get him.

Well the original trade idea I was responding to involved Bufuglien and Stuart coming back for Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton.

I think Buf is better and cheaper than Dion and I don't think the difference is made up by Holland and Ashton, thus why I said something more valuable would need to be included to get the deal done.

Maybe not JVR, maybe just a high pick, but I wouldn't make the proposed deal if I was the WPG GM.

 

[Madferret]

I'd imagine a realistic deal would more likely involve JVR instead of Lupul and a pretty decent pick coming from the Leafs.

Can't see how Leafs would have to give up JVR, a more established, , cheaper, less headace'y version of Kane.  At worst, that would be a straight up 1 for 1 trade, but still feels like the Leafs take on all the risk with not a lot of upside above what JVR already brings.

I like Kane and I would love to take him on, but the price can't be basically a better version of Kane to get him.

Well the original trade idea I was responding to involved Bufuglien and Stuart coming back for Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton.

I think Buf is better and cheaper than Dion and I don't think the difference is made up by Holland and Ashton, thus why I said something more valuable would need to be included to get the deal done.

Maybe not JVR, maybe just a high pick, but I wouldn't make the proposed deal if I was the WPG GM.

With respect Cheva I don't think any of the CDN teams are going to be fooled into trading for Phaneuf. Especially for some of the players you're suggesting. 

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I'd imagine a realistic deal would more likely involve JVR instead of Lupul and a pretty decent pick coming from the Leafs.

Can't see how Leafs would have to give up JVR, a more established, , cheaper, less headace'y version of Kane.  At worst, that would be a straight up 1 for 1 trade, but still feels like the Leafs take on all the risk with not a lot of upside above what JVR already brings.

I like Kane and I would love to take him on, but the price can't be basically a better version of Kane to get him.

Well the original trade idea I was responding to involved Bufuglien and Stuart coming back for Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton.

I think Buf is better and cheaper than Dion and I don't think the difference is made up by Holland and Ashton, thus why I said something more valuable would need to be included to get the deal done.

Maybe not JVR, maybe just a high pick, but I wouldn't make the proposed deal if I was the WPG GM.

With respect Cheva I don't think any of the CDN teams are going to be fooled into trading for Phaneuf. Especially for some of the players you're suggesting.

FWIW I wasn't the original poster who proposed a trade, Bulldog was.

His proposal was:

"Lupul, Phaneuf, Holland and Ashton for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart"

I don't think that's anywhere near a trade that has a chance of materializing.

I thought it would look more like:

JVR, Phaneuf, Holland, 1st for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart.

That's really only if the Leafs are desperate to get rid of Phaneuf though, as I think there's way more risk for the Leafs in that deal.

All of that to say I don't really think Phaneuf is going anywhere anyways .

 

[Madferret]

My mistake Cheva

 

[Kin]

JVR, Phaneuf, Holland, 1st for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart.

I know it wasn't you who suggested this and you're just trying to balance the ledger but this got me thinking. Can anyone remember what the last trade was, not involving the Leafs but in the entire NHL, where two players the likes of Lupul/JVR or Phaneuf(or Kane/Byfuglien) were traded at the same time, in one trade?

I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but honestly it feels as though there hasn't been a big, multi-part trade like that in 20 years.

 

[Corn Flake]

JVR, Phaneuf, Holland, 1st for Kane, Byfuglien and Stuart.

I know it wasn't you who suggested this and you're just trying to balance the ledger but this got me thinking. Can anyone remember what the last trade was, not involving the Leafs but in the entire NHL, where two players the likes of Lupul/JVR or Phaneuf(or Kane/Byfuglien) were traded at the same time, in one trade?

I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but honestly it feels as though there hasn't been a big, multi-part trade like that in 20 years.

Came to mind right away: Kevin Shattenkirk and Chris Stewart for Erik Johnson and a 1st (oh and Jay McClement too, of course)

Not exact, but kind of close to what we are looking at as a comparable. But yeah a pure "hockey trade" doesn't happen a lot.

 

[Kin]

Came to mind right away: Kevin Shattenkirk and Chris Stewart for Erik Johnson and a 1st (oh and Jay McClement too, of course)

Not exact, but kind of close to what we are looking at as a comparable. But yeah a pure "hockey trade" doesn't happen a lot.

That was Shattenkirk's rookie year though, right?

Anyways, I suppose I didn't even mean it in terms of a hockey trade as opposed to a trade for prospects but more along the lines of a team looking to make significant changes and doing it in one fell swoop as opposed to piecemeal. When Chicago was clearing cap space they traded both Andrew Ladd and Byfuglien to the Thrashers but they did it in separate trades a week apart.

 

[bustaheims]

I know it wasn't you who suggested this and you're just trying to balance the ledger but this got me thinking. Can anyone remember what the last trade was, not involving the Leafs but in the entire NHL, where two players the likes of Lupul/JVR or Phaneuf(or Kane/Byfuglien) were traded at the same time, in one trade?

I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but honestly it feels as though there hasn't been a big, multi-part trade like that in 20 years.

I can't think of a deal where multiple significant and established pieces who were under contract were moved by one team in a single deal, either. The closest I can come up with is Hartnell's and Timonen's UFA rights being moved in the same deal, but, that's not at all on the same level.

 

[Peter D.]

I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but honestly it feels as though there hasn't been a big, multi-part trade like that in 20 years.

Would you consider the Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha trade from back in June 2000 to fit this criteria?  That's the first one which came to mind.

As lopsided as it was, it did involve four players in their early 20s who all had a couple NHL seasons under their belt (except for Luongo who only had one).

 

[bustaheims]

As lopsided as it was, it did involve four players in their early 20s who all had a couple NHL seasons under their belt (except for Luongo who only had one).

A couple seasons exactly. Not a single one of them had played more than 2 complete NHL seasons, and other than Parrish, none of them has established themselves as much of anything yet. That was more of a young players for young players move than significant pieces for significant pieces move.

 

[Kin]

Would you consider the Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha trade from back in June 2000 to fit this criteria?  That's the first one which came to mind.

As lopsided as it was, it did involve four players in their early 20s who all had a couple NHL seasons under their belt (except for Luongo who only had one).

No, I mean, like busta says I don't think a single player in that trade at the time of that trade was as established as the least established player we're talking about here(which would be Kane, I suppose). Neither Kvasha or Jokinen had hit 15 goals in a season.

I'd say that what the Leafs traded to Calgary for Phaneuf was significantly more inline with what I'm talking about

 

[Crucialness Key]

Can anyone remember what the last trade was, not involving the Leafs but in the entire NHL, where two players the likes of Lupul/JVR or Phaneuf(or Kane/Byfuglien) were traded at the same time, in one trade?

I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but honestly it feels as though there hasn't been a big, multi-part trade like that in 20 years.

Moulson for Vanek??

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I would imagine the Seguin-Eriksson deal would be the closest you'd get to what you're looking for. Each side got one major piece plus at least one other NHL player.