Official Ottawa Senators Thread
- Thread starter Madferret
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Heroic Shrimp
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Madferret said:
Paging Matt Cooke...
bustaheims
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Madferret said:
Despite being entirely average, at best, defensively.
bustaheims
Active member
Madferret said:
No, that's the hockey fan in me, whose opinion is backed up by a number of friends who are sens fans. It's just the blind homer in you that can't see the truth.
I don't actually have a problem with Karlsson, but I do want to point out that he should be in jail for robbing Drew Doughty of the Norris last season. He won because of a messed-up voting structure.
bustaheims
Active member
Madferret said:
In a league where the Norris voters are super impressed by point totals, they do. The Norris hasn't been a defensive award for years. It's basically become the "best offensive defenceman" award.
I mean, if he was good defensively, you'd think his coach would use him on the PK more.
Nik the Trik said:
In no particular order I'd say: Doughty, Keith, Subban, Karlsson, Hedman. Karlsson might only be average in his own end, but for a defenceman to be able to do what he does in the other end is basically unheard of in this era.
I've spoken about this with a friend of mine whose a big Keith fan. Karlsson's most frequenly linemates the past few seasons have been Methot, Turris, Ryan, and Michalek. Duncan Keith's have been Seabrook, Toews, Hossa, and Kane. That's a pretty massive difference. I think if you swapped those defencemen you'd see a pretty big change in opinion on them. Karlsson's a great defencemen who's been stuck on a crappy team.
Kin
New member
CarltonTheBear said:
See, for me it's Doughty, Keith, Subban, Hedman and then there's a conversation about #5 with guys like Karlsson bu also Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. I mean, you want to talk about who they're playing with and for Weber there's a lot of Craig Smith and Paul Gaustad and for Suter it's Jared Spurgeon and Jason Pominville. Bobby Ryan seems like a pretty decent choice all said and done.
Which isn't a knock on the guy, he's probably the best offensive defenseman in the game and top 10 overall but the idea that he's seriously in the conversation for the #1 spot, like busta says, reveals a bit of a flaw in the voting process.
Nik the Trik said:
Fair enough. I don't really think that we're too far off in our assessment of Karlsson. If I did have to rank him he would generally be in the 3-5 slots as opposed to the 1-2. Suter's probably got 6 locked up, Weber's a little further down the list but that could be a conversation for another day.
But when he has years where he's scoring 78 points I don't have any problem with that being enough to justify a Norris win. You have to take offensive contributions into consideration as well and like I said a defenceman scoring near PPG is unheard of these days.
I do think and have said though that Doughty should have won last years, and almost certainly would have if the voting process wasn't imperfect.
bustaheims
Active member
Madferret said:
Norris trophy defencemen who aren't winning purely because of their offence play a significant role on the PK. They just do.
Heroic Shrimp
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bustaheims said:
That should go without saying, but apparently not.
If Karlsson played on the PK more, he most definitely wouldn't be playing 30+ minutes a night, because he'd be playing less 5-on-5 and on the PP to compensate for increased PK time. They're wisely playing him to his strengths, of course, which doesn't include the PK.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
If you subscribe to the theory that if he's playing offense, then he's not having to play defense, then he's without comparable really. A lot of thinking on defense has definitely shifted from has to be great in own end, to just not having to play there much.
I'd have him top 3 just because he dominates a facet of the game like none of his peers do and I'd say he's as good as Doughty and Subban too if you're looking at the sum of all parts.
I'd have him top 3 just because he dominates a facet of the game like none of his peers do and I'd say he's as good as Doughty and Subban too if you're looking at the sum of all parts.
bustaheims
Active member
Patrick said:
On offence, he's deadly, no question, and, yes, that helps his team from the defensive standpoint, in that they have the puck more when he's on the ice. However, he's not the type of guy you go to when you're up by 1 and have to deal with a faceoff in the defensive zone in the last minute of the game - and, really, a traditional Norris calibre defenceman would be used in that situation.