Phil Kessel and trade value

[moon111]

I do not trust Kessel, Kadri, or Lupul for their defensive play.  And would only partner two of them together if the 3rd line-mate was someone like Kulemin.

 

[Redleaf]

I'm with you BWB. I think we're going to see continued progression from Kadri. It wouldn't shock me to see him flirt with 70+ points this season.

I think that's pretty much impossible unless they make him the 1st line C.  Bozak averaged over 2:00 more ice time per game at even-strength than Kadri last season and ~:20 more PP time per game.  I just don't think he'd get enough ice-time with the necessary linemates to put up those kinds of numbers if he remains in the position he was in last season.

He really deserves to be the #1 C on the PP at least though, but I could understand why they might want to spread the offense out between the two units like they have.

I believe Kadri is basically going to take the time from Bozak on account of his play. He could also not raise his game, but I don't feel that is going to happen, he's too skilled and his drive is a big part of his game. I say he puts it all together.

At the very least, I think he'll be the top center on the top PP.

I also agree with above, if his line mates come to play also, he'll get more points that way. I have a suspicion that he'll start the season with Lupul and Booth and end with Kessel and JvR.

We'll see.

I don't know about Kadri finally having a break through season and cracking the top line. To me he just seems to lack commitment.

Does he look like he's been working out in the gym all summer to you?

http://instagram.com/p/sYKGoPpFAI/

If he does indeed show up to camp overweight, and out of shape (again) should Nonis really sign this guy to a long term, big money contract?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

and out of shape (again)

That was B.S., Kadri spent that summer working out with Gary Roberts.  Just Eakins/the media making something out of nothing.

 

[Redleaf]

and out of shape (again)

That was B.S., Kadri spent that summer working out with Gary Roberts.  Just Eakins/the media making something out of nothing.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I guess we'll see if anything is said by management this camp about his 'readiness'.

 

[Courtnall]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player. Not taking anything away from him, he's very skilled, but he's streaky as all hell and the team reflects this. I know he doesn't like the limelight nor wants any leadership role but the fact is as our best player you automatically become someone the rest of the team looks to. When they see him coasting from blue line to blue line for a line change costing the team a penalty (too many men). He is NOT worth 8 million. He is a sniper and rarely a game changer himself. To me he would be a great complimentary players but as our best player I dont like it. I know there's probably nothing out there to do, I'm just venting.

 

[freer]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player. Not taking anything away from him, he's very skilled, but he's streaky as all hell and the team reflects this. I know he doesn't like the limelight nor wants any leadership role but the fact is as our best player you automatically become someone the rest of the team looks to. When they see him coasting from blue line to blue line for a line change costing the team a penalty (too many men). He is NOT worth 8 million. He is a sniper and rarely a game changer himself. To me he would be a great complimentary players but as our best player I dont like it. I know there's probably nothing out there to do, I'm just venting.

Unfortunately a 70 point player is now worth 8 mil a year.

 

[Bender]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player. Not taking anything away from him, he's very skilled, but he's streaky as all hell and the team reflects this. I know he doesn't like the limelight nor wants any leadership role but the fact is as our best player you automatically become someone the rest of the team looks to. When they see him coasting from blue line to blue line for a line change costing the team a penalty (too many men). He is NOT worth 8 million. He is a sniper and rarely a game changer himself. To me he would be a great complimentary players but as our best player I dont like it. I know there's probably nothing out there to do, I'm just venting.

So what is he worth to you?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player. Not taking anything away from him, he's very skilled, but he's streaky as all hell and the team reflects this. I know he doesn't like the limelight nor wants any leadership role but the fact is as our best player you automatically become someone the rest of the team looks to. When they see him coasting from blue line to blue line for a line change costing the team a penalty (too many men). He is NOT worth 8 million. He is a sniper and rarely a game changer himself. To me he would be a great complimentary players but as our best player I dont like it. I know there's probably nothing out there to do, I'm just venting.

Almost all highly skilled players are streaky.

Rarely a game changer?  Just not true.

Posts like these tend to crop up every season every time the Leafs and/or Kessel have a few subpar games in a row.  Probably will continue for as long as he's here.

 

[bustaheims]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player. Not taking anything away from him, he's very skilled, but he's streaky as all hell and the team reflects this. I know he doesn't like the limelight nor wants any leadership role but the fact is as our best player you automatically become someone the rest of the team looks to. When they see him coasting from blue line to blue line for a line change costing the team a penalty (too many men). He is NOT worth 8 million. He is a sniper and rarely a game changer himself. To me he would be a great complimentary players but as our best player I dont like it. I know there's probably nothing out there to do, I'm just venting.

Last season, he lead the league in goals that either tied the game or put his team ahead. Yeah. Not a game changer.

 

[2badknees]

We wont ever be competitive while Kessel is our best player.

I agree. It's not necessarily a knock on Kessel, but more of a general overvaluation of the supporting cast.

However, truth be told, I'd go as far as to say that JVR is probably a better overall player as of now, and has the potential to be even better.

 

[Kin]

I think it's probably underrating Kessel a bit to say he's not a game changer. I do think, though, that it's fair to question the impact he has on games where he doesn't score and his adaptability to play in different situations. Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is. It's a tremendously valuable dimension, one that HOF careers are built on, but if we're realistic about it he will have to become a different player to be the best player on a cup winner.

 

[2badknees]

Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is.

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game. It's not like he's going to muck around in the corners, fight through checks, or god forbid, actually throw a hit. So some games he's given more liberties than others, and it shows up in the scoresheet. If the leafs can generate more offence from the other lines, it should actually benefit Kessel in terms of reduced defensive focus.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game.

Completely ignoring his excellent passing abilities, for one.

And you really think Kessel only produces offense in those 2 situations?  If so, he must get himself into those situations an awful lot.

 

[Kin]

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game.

Just to clarify, Kessel is a very good playmaker. I think his assist totals work out to something like 46 per 82 games over the last three years. At speed, with space, he can be a tremendously effective offensive player in more than one way. Saying he's a "sniper", as Lee-Bo did , minimizes his offensive contributions. He's one of the 20 or so best offensive players in the game.

But it's an unavoidable fact that when the other team is able to neutralize him offensively he is a pretty ineffective presence. He's not going to contribute to the sorts of shifts we saw from the third line last night where they keep a team pinned but can't score a goal and he's not a guy who's going to win possession in puck battles too often.

 

[Courtnall]

I'm not the best at explaining my point, I'm sorry. But I'm glad some of you understood it. Maybe Its one dimensional instead of streaky, sometimes you can contain him. The best players play through it and still excell. THe only person you could trade for is someone young with a lot of potential, thus starting a rebuild practically. Tough to retool to get someone better in return unless you package someone else in there.

 

[2badknees]

I'm not the best at explaining my point, I'm sorry. But I'm glad some of you understood it. Maybe Its one dimensional instead of streaky, sometimes you can contain him. The best players play through it and still excel.

That's ok, I think you made some good points. Regarding trading him - I think with the team as it is, that ship has sailed to do a complete rebuild, so best to try to improve the 2nd line and D. My guess is that Nonis/Shanahan realizes that there's some dysfunction regarding the overall coaching/talent/personalities on the team, and is likely looking to make some significant moves over the next few months with teams like Edmonton, and a new coach will come in at the same timeline. At the end of the day, Kessel is the least of the leafs problems, imo.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Mike Bossy was often the kind of player who waited for the puck to come to him.  Of course, Bossy was an excellent goal scorer. He was not a significant playmaker, that is not to say he couldn't pass.  The Islanders were only too happy to let Bossy do the job he was intended to do -- score goals.

Those Islanders teams were different from the Leafs team of today.  Before the Islanders went on to their Cup-winning ways, they were a steadily improving team, complete with many a drafted and/or acquired player who would be seen as an asset to the team.

The Leafs of today are a far cry from those Stanley Cup winning Isles teams.  Every player there had a role to play -- from Bossy to Trottier to Bourne to Potvin -- and they played it very well with a system of both defence & offence.  No, Bossy was no penalty killer, in fact he wasn't necessarily adept at switching to being defensive, he didn't have to because the Islanders were structured to follow the system they had consistency & precision, a balanced team in all areas, in other words.

With the Leafs, Kessel can also be defined as a pure scorer and not so adept at being defensive without it.  Perhaps not that much of a playmaker than scorer.  But, because the Leafs seem to depend on him as their one true source of scoring, more than any other Leaf on the roster, it's easy to call Kessel "streaky", "one-dimensional" because scoring is his fort and that's what he does best.  The fact that the Leafs are not a well-balanced team in any area, and do not seem to be able to adhere or even have a proper system, nor a coach who is very capable, it's easy to see why some blame Kessel for some of the Leafs shortfalls -- particularly, his shortcomings, which wouldn't be shortcomings on a more balanced and prooerly structured team.

 

[rdowdall]

Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is.

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game. It's not like he's going to muck around in the corners, fight through checks, or god forbid, actually throw a hit. So some games he's given more liberties than others, and it shows up in the scoresheet. If the leafs can generate more offence from the other lines, it should actually benefit Kessel in terms of reduced defensive focus.

I think what it boils down to for me is that when he doesn't score he actually has a negative impact on the team because he doesn't defend all that well.  When he is scoring, his line isn't in the d-zone all that much, so we don't notice the impact all that much.  However, when he can't break out of the zone, that line gets hemmed in their own end, and all sorts of calamity ensues.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Kessel posted a few pictures of different Leafs posing with the cup to his instagram.

 

[Andy007]

Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is.

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game. It's not like he's going to muck around in the corners, fight through checks, or god forbid, actually throw a hit. So some games he's given more liberties than others, and it shows up in the scoresheet. If the leafs can generate more offence from the other lines, it should actually benefit Kessel in terms of reduced defensive focus.

I think what it boils down to for me is that when he doesn't score he actually has a negative impact on the team because he doesn't defend all that well.  When he is scoring, his line isn't in the d-zone all that much, so we don't notice the impact all that much.  However, when he can't break out of the zone, that line gets hemmed in their own end, and all sorts of calamity ensues.

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end. He's really done a great job in that area the last few years. Granted breaking out of the defensive zone is a huge problem with that line, but one has to wonder how much of the problem lies with the centre. Personally I think it's Bozak who's exacerbating that line's defensive struggles.