Phil Kessel

[Heroic Shrimp]

Here are some of the NHL players who have scored a goal this year:

Cody Mcleod
George Parros
Ryan Garbutt
Jake Muzzin
Keith Aulie
Brandon Prust

Exactly. A few players who have yet to score:

Iginla
Nugent-Hopkins
Mike Richards
H. Sedin

Tons of players with only one goal like Seguin aka "The Man Who Can Do No Wrong" and Staal, who got his first tonight.

Which list of guys would you rather have on your team? If Kessel doesn' t hit the post on one of his chances, no one is complaining. Seems a little silly. If after the next ten games Kessel is still scoreless than it might be a problem. I see him out there playing hard, plus I notice every game he makes a couple of great passes.  He is the least of the problems on this team of bums.

Problem is dating back to end of last season Kessel has 2 goals in 24 games

Mats Sundin was pretty much Mr. Consistency, but I remember him having a 10-game goal drought.  And what was that other stretch, when he was approaching the all-time Leaf goal lead, something like 1 goal in 19 games or something ridiculous like that?

I remain annoyed and frustrated by Kessel's drought, but I'm not worried in the least.

 

[L K]

Here are some of the NHL players who have scored a goal this year:

Cody Mcleod
George Parros
Ryan Garbutt
Jake Muzzin
Keith Aulie
Brandon Prust

Exactly. A few players who have yet to score:

Iginla
Nugent-Hopkins
Mike Richards
H. Sedin

Tons of players with only one goal like Seguin aka "The Man Who Can Do No Wrong" and Staal, who got his first tonight.

Which list of guys would you rather have on your team? If Kessel doesn' t hit the post on one of his chances, no one is complaining. Seems a little silly. If after the next ten games Kessel is still scoreless than it might be a problem. I see him out there playing hard, plus I notice every game he makes a couple of great passes.  He is the least of the problems on this team of bums.

Problem is dating back to end of last season Kessel has 2 goals in 24 games

Mats Sundin was pretty much Mr. Consistency, but I remember him having a 10-game goal drought.  And what was that other stretch, when he was approaching the all-time Leaf goal lead, something like 1 goal in 19 games or something ridiculous like that?

I remain annoyed and frustrated by Kessel's drought, but I'm not worried in the least.

2 goals in 23 games to end the 2006-2007 season.  (1 goal in 20 games if you cherry-pick the goal slump).  What gets missed in that stretch however was the 21 points in 23 games he had over that stretch.

Kessel is on a stretch of 3 goals in his last 24 games.  He has 14 points over that stretch. 

The Leafs are certainly a bad team this year but that was a really bad team for Sundin too.  He outscored the next best forward by 31 points that year (76-45). 

 

[PG]

Another HUGE difference is that some of those aforementioned guys (Sundin, Richards, Sedin) bring so much more to the table when they aren't scoring. Faceoffs, PKing, etc.

 

[Kin]

Exactly. A few players who have yet to score:

Iginla
Nugent-Hopkins
Mike Richards
H. Sedin

Right, good. Because my list was intended as a very serious criticism that required further examination.

Two things. One, of the players on your list, Jarome Iginla is the only one who could credibly be said to derive as much of his value as a player from his goal scoring ability. Sedin and RNH are set-up guys for the most part, Sedin in particular has had very successful seasons scoring as few as 10 goals, and Mike Richards is a second line centre who kills penalties.

Secondly, I bet if you went to CalgaryFlamesfans.ca or LAKingsfans.com there would be some people who weren't too happy with Iginla or Richards' play either. If the season ended today only Sedin, who does have 6 points in 9 games, would make the playoffs. For a criticism to be valid of Kessel, it doesn't need to be valid only of Kessel. 

 

[Redleaf]

At some point, saying he's "snakebitten" is just a diplomatic way of saying he's not doing his job.

I know he's getting chances but he is getting paid to bury them.

To be fair to him, I don't think it's right to say he's being paid to do any specific thing but rather that he's supposed to be contributing at a level he really hasn't been.

Wow Nik. You've got more personas than Barbie on a world tour... 

 

[Kin]

Wow Nik. You've got more personas than Barbie on a world tour... 

Hey, I'm a fair man. I'd be thrilled if Kessel had no goals but 12 assists and was knocking guys on their butts.

 

[Redleaf]

Wow Nik. You've got more personas than Barbie on a world tour... 

Hey, I'm a fair man. I'd be thrilled if Kessel had no goals but 12 assists and was knocking guys on their butts.

I was referring to your new handle. How many reincarnations are we at?

 

[Redleaf]

I keep repeating this with the hope that one of these nights I'll actually be right. Kessel will breakout TONIGHT. 2 goals......

 

[BrownRolo]

Exactly. A few players who have yet to score:

Iginla
Nugent-Hopkins
Mike Richards
H. Sedin

Right, good. Because my list was intended as a very serious criticism that required further examination.

Two things. One, of the players on your list, Jarome Iginla is the only one who could credibly be said to derive as much of his value as a player from his goal scoring ability. Sedin and RNH are set-up guys for the most part, Sedin in particular has had very successful seasons scoring as few as 10 goals, and Mike Richards is a second line centre who kills penalties.

Secondly, I bet if you went to CalgaryFlamesfans.ca or LAKingsfans.com there would be some people who weren't too happy with Iginla or Richards' play either. If the season ended today only Sedin, who does have 6 points in 9 games, would make the playoffs. For a criticism to be valid of Kessel, it doesn't need to be valid only of Kessel.

My list was just the same...a list of players who usually you can peg for 20-30 goals a season who have yet to get lucky and get their first. It wasn't an examination.

And I'm not saying people shouldn't be bothered with Kessel's lack of scoring. It's pretty frustrating to watch. But you can tell he's working for it and he wants it. It isn't like he is pulling a Kovalev out there for the entire game. So personally I'm fine with Kessel so far this season.

And Nik, I don't want to get into any kind of critical examination discussion of anything with you, cause I have read this site for a while and I don't think I could come out on top.

Oh yeah, what do you mean by this? "For a criticism to be valid of Kessel, it doesn't need to be valid only of Kessel." Please provide an answer supported by academic sources of course.  ;D

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Mats Sundin was pretty much Mr. Consistency, but I remember him having a 10-game goal drought.  And what was that other stretch, when he was approaching the all-time Leaf goal lead, something like 1 goal in 19 games or something ridiculous like that?

I remain annoyed and frustrated by Kessel's drought, but I'm not worried in the least.

2 goals in 23 games to end the 2006-2007 season.  (1 goal in 20 games if you cherry-pick the goal slump).  What gets missed in that stretch however was the 21 points in 23 games he had over that stretch.

Kessel is on a stretch of 3 goals in his last 24 games.  He has 14 points over that stretch. 

The Leafs are certainly a bad team this year but that was a really bad team for Sundin too.  He outscored the next best forward by 31 points that year (76-45).

I recall very well that blip for Sundin, including his overall point production.  Believe me, I was one of the people telling people to calm down for a variety of reasons.  The point is merely that statistical oddities happen even to consistent producers.  To me, this is a statistical oddity right now and nothing more.  I've watched hockey for many, many years, as I'm sure you and so many others here have too, and stuff like this just happens.

I don't see Kessel playing any significantly different right now.  He's getting lots of chances.  I'll say it and say it again:  But for inches and bad flukes, Kessel could easily have 4 or 5 goals right now.  Likewise, in stretches where Kessel or anybody else goes on a tear of like 10 goals in 12 games, a lot of that is just the luck going the other way.  Remember that season that started with new acquisition Clarke MacArthur getting like 8 goals in the first 9 games?  Was he really playing like a superstar?  He was playing okay, and everything was just going in.  It happens.

You guys can all be as worried as you like.  I'm not worried, because I simply don't see anything from his play to make me worried.  It's a story only as much as people make it out to be a story.

 

[Kin]

I don't see Kessel playing any significantly different right now.  He's getting lots of chances.  I'll say it and say it again:  But for inches and bad flukes, Kessel could easily have 4 or 5 goals right now.  Likewise, in stretches where Kessel or anybody else goes on a tear of like 10 goals in 12 games, a lot of that is just the luck going the other way.  Remember that season that started with new acquisition Clarke MacArthur getting like 8 goals in the first 9 games?  Was he really playing like a superstar?  He was playing okay, and everything was just going in.  It happens.

The problem with that is that you almost make it sound like the reason people have an issue with Kessel's lack of production is that they're primarily concerned with Phil Kessel's point totals and that, by virtue of an extended slump, he may not hit certain important statistical milestones that justify his elite status. 

But, of course, the concern is about how Kessel's production or lack thereof actually impacts the team's ability to win. How having the best player on the team not producing is costing the team points in the early going of a season where every point is at something of a premium. It's a tough burden to place on a player but with players like Lupul hurt Kessel's offense becomes more important and for it to disappear almost entirely can put the Leafs in a hole that will be very hard for them to climb out of even if he does go on a tear later on.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I don't see Kessel playing any significantly different right now.  He's getting lots of chances.  I'll say it and say it again:  But for inches and bad flukes, Kessel could easily have 4 or 5 goals right now.  Likewise, in stretches where Kessel or anybody else goes on a tear of like 10 goals in 12 games, a lot of that is just the luck going the other way.  Remember that season that started with new acquisition Clarke MacArthur getting like 8 goals in the first 9 games?  Was he really playing like a superstar?  He was playing okay, and everything was just going in.  It happens.

The problem with that is that you almost make it sound like the reason people have an issue with Kessel's lack of production is that they're primarily concerned with Phil Kessel's point totals and that, by virtue of an extended slump, he may not hit certain important statistical milestones that justify his elite status.

I'm not sure how you gathered that, but no, that has nothing to do with anything I'm either saying or thinking.  If it makes any difference to you, I can say "...Kessel could easily have 4 or 5 goals right now, and the Leafs 1 or 2 more points, too."  It really makes no difference to my point, even though it's clearly crucial to you.  Of course the overall team performance is the only thing that matters, but I see Kessel doing all the things he's ever done to help the team succeed.  It just happens that the goals haven't gone in.  It's a damn shame, but so it goes.

But, of course, the concern is about how Kessel's production or lack thereof actually impacts the team's ability to win. How having the best player on the team not producing is costing the team points in the early going of a season where every point is at something of a premium. It's a tough burden to place on a player but with players like Lupul hurt Kessel's offense becomes more important and for it to disappear almost entirely can put the Leafs in a hole that will be very hard for them to climb out of even if he does go on a tear later on.

Of course, I fully recognize that.  There's little doubt the Leafs could have another point or two already if Kessel had managed to score a few goals, and points are especially precious this year.  It's extremely unfortunate to have this happen at this time (or any time) and the team can little afford to give away any points.  It's just there's the enormous hand-wringing about it, but to me it's like one might as well blame Lupul for breaking his arm.  It's really, really unfortunate, it sucks, it definitely hurts the team, but it happens, and I don't see it being Kessel's fault.

 

[Rebel_1812]

kulemin has one goal on the year.  Bozak has 2.  Our captain Phaneuf doesn't have any goals. Lupul doesn't have a goal, and likely won't get any because of his injury. Clarke MacArthur only has one.  So really why are we picking on Kessel?  He is at least getting chances to score every night unlike many on that list.

 

[Kin]

I'm not sure how you gathered that, but no, that has nothing to do with anything I'm either saying or thinking.

Well, I suppose it has to do with the sort of overall thrust of what you're saying. The "but for inches..." when the reality is that at this level of competition what often separates players is inches. It's that inch between ringing it off the post and putting it in the net that creates a goal scorer's value and what separates good offensive players from bad ones isn't their ability to tap it into open nets but to play that game of inches consistently to their benefit.

To say Kessel is playing as well as he always is, he's just missing goals by inches strikes me as kind of like saying that a struggling home run hitter is still hitting deep flyballs, they're just missing the fence by a few feet. The difference there might be small but it's the difference between effective play and ineffective play. 

Of course the overall team performance is the only thing that matters, but I see Kessel doing all the things he's ever done to help the team succeed.  It just happens that the goals haven't gone in.

I'm sure you'll accuse me of being overly literal here but I certainly hope that you understand how I would see these two sentences as a bit of a contradiction. Unless you think that Kessel's value to the team is being fast and taking shots as opposed to scoring goals then no, he's not doing the things that help the team succeed. Close, as my grandfather liked to say, only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

It's just there's the enormous hand-wringing about it, but to me it's like one might as well blame Lupul for breaking his arm. It's really, really unfortunate, it sucks, it definitely hurts the team, but it happens, and I don't see it being Kessel's fault.

Do you see though how someone could take these sentences to mean that, in your opinion, the actual act of putting the puck in the net is an entirely random occurrence? Kessel's inability to score, and to be fair not all of the chances Kessel's been getting are ringing off both posts, is something that to a pretty good extent within his control.

When Kessel, or any talented goal scorer, is on his game he still hits posts. He still has shots that the goalie makes big saves on or take unlucky bounces or whatever. We might notice those things more when he's also not scoring but the random chance of the game means that Kessel could easily have more goals but so could just about every other player in the league at any point of any season. Kessel's close calls are not the oddity here. It's the lack of scoring that is.

 

[Erndog]

Try Phil with Kadri and Frattin.

What the hell

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Kessel's close calls are not the oddity here. It's the lack of scoring that is.

So pretty much he's getting the normal amount of chances, and the pucks aren't going in (whether through his actions or of those around him), which is really all I'm trying to say, and you agree.  He's trying, and he's not producing, we agree.  I don't think he can particularly try harder, so I guess he just has to aim better...  C'mon, Phil, aim better!

It's not even worth getting further into the debate which I detest and shouldn't have offered an opinion on, other than to say that the drought is going to end, and there will be no rhyme or reason to it when it does.  To which I'm sure you will offer plenty of reason, and which will probably also rhyme. 

 

[Kin]

So pretty much he's getting the normal amount of chances, and the pucks aren't going in (whether through his actions or of those around him), which is really all I'm trying to say, and you agree.  He's trying, and he's not producing, we agree.  I don't think he can particularly try harder, so I guess he just has to aim better...  C'mon, Phil, aim better!

Apologies. I didn't intend to sound as though I felt Phil Kessel wasn't tied for the league lead in trying.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

So pretty much he's getting the normal amount of chances, and the pucks aren't going in (whether through his actions or of those around him), which is really all I'm trying to say, and you agree.  He's trying, and he's not producing, we agree.  I don't think he can particularly try harder, so I guess he just has to aim better...  C'mon, Phil, aim better!

Apologies. I didn't intend to sound as though I felt Phil Kessel wasn't tied for the league lead in trying.

Well, you know, if at first (or second, or third) you don't succeed, f*'n succeed already!

 

[Beowulf]

kulemin has one goal on the year.  Bozak has 2.  Our captain Phaneuf doesn't have any goals. Lupul doesn't have a goal, and likely won't get any because of his injury. Clarke MacArthur only has one.  So really why are we picking on Kessel?  He is at least getting chances to score every night unlike many on that list.

Well Kulemin brings a lot more to the table; hits, pking, good two way play and he's on a line that is used as a pseudo shutdown line. He's also 3rd on the team in points, 2 more than Kessel.

Bozak is not really counted on to be a goal scorer, more of a setup man, some penalty killing, been excellent on faceoffs (almost 59%) - again more points than Kessel including 2 goals

Phaneuf I'll give you, he's been awful. But again looking at it from goal scoring perspective no one is counting on him to be one of the team's leading goal scorers; even if he was playing well (although one or two would be nice).

It's not even worth mentioning Lupul who has only played 2+ games really. But he certainly is counted on as a physical presence as well as for his offensive capabilities

MacArthur has been pretty bad too but has also missed 3 games and has still managed to pot one.

Most of the guys you mentioned can help the team in many other ways other than goalscoring. Kessel on the other hand is counted on to score goals more than anything else he brings to the table; if he's not scoring, his value to the team is limited. MacArthur is the closest comparable, as he is mostly valued to pot the puck and perhaps doesn't bring as much to the table as some of the other guys (although I'd say he's more physical than Phil).

I don't think anyone is accusing Phil of not trying or are being overly critical of him but the matter of fact is that right now he is not scoring, and he shouldn't be shielded from any criticism just because he's trying hard.

Try Phil with Kadri and Frattin.

What the hell

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing that at all, I'm not sure how they'd do defensively but it's definitely worth a shot. We know Kadri and Frattin have chemistry, and afaik we've never seen Kessel and him together.

 

[Kin]

Well, you know, if at first (or second, or third) you don't succeed, f*'n succeed already!

Said William Tell Jr. to his not easily dissuaded father.