Phil Kessel

[Bonsixx]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

 

[ZBBM]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

So would you trade them for a package of picks and prospects then if it was some really good (but typical of those types of deals) offer?

Assuming yes, you are suggesting that just when this team finally has young players we've waited patiently to develop and step in and around them, you would reset the clock on Kessel & Phaneuf, thus bascially setting the rebuild back another 3-5 years while we wait for the return on those two guys to do what Kadri, Gardiner, etc are doing now?  The team record as a whole would take a gigantic leap backwards if you did that.  I think we are crazy to think that you can remove those two, hand their roles to young players and expect same or better results immediately.  IMO we would get the results we've had in the 3-4 previous years all over again.

Look, I get that Kessel and Phaneuf aren't perfect, but I've been saying for several years now that this team was going to start taking real steps when the kids that were acquired over the last 4-5 years started stepping into legit roles and making an impact... and they are just now doing that.

The bolded part is way over the top.  First of all, who says you have to trade them for picks/prospects?  You could go for roster players instead.  Second, there is nothing Phaneuf and Kessel bring to the team that is so vital that it would cause the whole squad to be set back for years on end.

 

[ZBBM]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they? 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Second, there is nothing Phaneuf and Kessel bring to the team that is so vital that it would cause the whole squad to be set back for years on end.

Um...what?

 

[Corn Flake]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

So would you trade them for a package of picks and prospects then if it was some really good (but typical of those types of deals) offer?

Assuming yes, you are suggesting that just when this team finally has young players we've waited patiently to develop and step in and around them, you would reset the clock on Kessel & Phaneuf, thus bascially setting the rebuild back another 3-5 years while we wait for the return on those two guys to do what Kadri, Gardiner, etc are doing now?  The team record as a whole would take a gigantic leap backwards if you did that.  I think we are crazy to think that you can remove those two, hand their roles to young players and expect same or better results immediately.  IMO we would get the results we've had in the 3-4 previous years all over again.

Look, I get that Kessel and Phaneuf aren't perfect, but I've been saying for several years now that this team was going to start taking real steps when the kids that were acquired over the last 4-5 years started stepping into legit roles and making an impact... and they are just now doing that.

The bolded part is way over the top.  First of all, who says you have to trade them for picks/prospects?  You could go for roster players instead.  Second, there is nothing Phaneuf and Kessel bring to the team that is so vital that it would cause the whole squad to be set back for years on end.

Like I said.. ASSUMING YES to trading them for picks and prospects, that's what you would be doing.

I didn't want to blather on about 100 alternate endings. We had been talking about the whole notion of "cashing out the chips" which to me is about picks/prospects return.

if you are dealing them for prime time players of similar ability but with missing assets we don't have, then yeah that's a different conversation.  Tell me though how you intend to get better players for them... aka: the type of player every team wants or won't let go of if they have?

 

[ZBBM]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

So would you trade them for a package of picks and prospects then if it was some really good (but typical of those types of deals) offer?

Assuming yes, you are suggesting that just when this team finally has young players we've waited patiently to develop and step in and around them, you would reset the clock on Kessel & Phaneuf, thus bascially setting the rebuild back another 3-5 years while we wait for the return on those two guys to do what Kadri, Gardiner, etc are doing now?  The team record as a whole would take a gigantic leap backwards if you did that.  I think we are crazy to think that you can remove those two, hand their roles to young players and expect same or better results immediately.  IMO we would get the results we've had in the 3-4 previous years all over again.

Look, I get that Kessel and Phaneuf aren't perfect, but I've been saying for several years now that this team was going to start taking real steps when the kids that were acquired over the last 4-5 years started stepping into legit roles and making an impact... and they are just now doing that.

The bolded part is way over the top.  First of all, who says you have to trade them for picks/prospects?  You could go for roster players instead.  Second, there is nothing Phaneuf and Kessel bring to the team that is so vital that it would cause the whole squad to be set back for years on end.

Like I said.. ASSUMING YES to trading them for picks and prospects, that's what you would be doing.

I didn't want to blather on about 100 alternate endings. We had been talking about the whole notion of "cashing out the chips" which to me is about picks/prospects return.

if you are dealing them for prime time players of similar ability but with missing assets we don't have, then yeah that's a different conversation.  Tell me though how you intend to get better players for them... aka: the type of player every team wants or won't let go of if they have?

I wouldn't expect to get better players for them.  I'd expect to get players of equal value who have characteristics better suited to a team that appears to be carving out a niche as a hard-battling, tough-to-play-against team.  If those players aren't available, you don't trade them.  I've never advocated just dumping either of them for anything you could get.  But by the same token they are hardly beyond trading.

 

[Bonsixx]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they?

I believe Phaneuf is about as close to untouchable as it gets, yes.

Kessel could be another story, but as someone else pointed out, unless you're trading him for a scorer of at least equal ability, the trade totally screws Toronto for another two or three years at least.

 

[L K]

Second, there is nothing Phaneuf and Kessel bring to the team that is so vital that it would cause the whole squad to be set back for years on end.

Um...what?

Yeah that's not really true at all.  Unless you sign a guy like Semin (like Carolina did last year) you aren't going to find many PPG calibre players just floating around.  It's extremely hard to find those guys and replace them.

I think it is reasonable to question Kessel's value as a playoff asset given that he seems to struggle against tight checking but before he has a chance to perform/not perform I think that is a little unfair.  I think there is a kind of team that Kessel struggles against though.

Boston, New York, Philly, somewhat Carolina.  He seems to struggle against teams that play tight defensive/very conservative hockey.

Those four teams he has 14G 27A - 41P in 94 games  0.436 PPG pace.
Over the rest of the league he has a career .795 PPG pace

I don't think it is hard to argue that the Leafs would be a better team with Seguin + Hamilton vs. Kessel, but to argue that the Leafs would be unharmed by losing Kessel is not really all that true.  The only thing that would change my mind on that would be if you got a kings ransom for him in a trade but that isn't likely to happen.

 

[Corn Flake]

So they're untouchable, are they?

I don't think anyone is saying they are untouchable. IMO, nobody on the Leafs is that.  There might be 5 guys in the NHL that I think are untouchable, and even that could be pushing it.

 

[ZBBM]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they?

I believe Phaneuf is about as close to untouchable as it gets, yes.

Kessel could be another story, but as someone else pointed out, unless you're trading him for a scorer of at least equal ability, the trade totally screws Toronto for another two or three years at least.

Phaneuf untouchable?  OK then.

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

 

[Corn Flake]

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

If they are going to score at the exact same pace as Kessel, what's the point? What have you gained? A few hits?

 

[ZBBM]

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

If they are going to score at the exact same pace as Kessel, what's the point? What have you gained? A few hits?

I was comparing to the characterization of Kessel as a PPG player.  If he's really at 0.75, then my comparison would be 0.50.  The gain would be in how that player fits the mold of the whole team.  I think that's important.

 

[Bonsixx]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they?

I believe Phaneuf is about as close to untouchable as it gets, yes.

Kessel could be another story, but as someone else pointed out, unless you're trading him for a scorer of at least equal ability, the trade totally screws Toronto for another two or three years at least.

Phaneuf untouchable?  OK then.

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

You have noticed that the Leafs current coach, and the one that preceded him, both seem to use Phaneuf for 25-30 minutes a game, right? It should be fairly obvious to anyone that he'd be considered untouchable (to the extent that any player truly can be), regardless of how much you hate his face.

And you swap Kessel for what sounds like a second-line player, suddenly teams focus in on Kadri and that nice little story goes out the window.

 

[Redleaf]

He is at best a secondary piece, not the centerpiece, of any team that aims to be a perennial playoff team and contender.

I completely agree with this, but this is no fault of his own.  Unfortunately for Kessel, the trade that brought him here and the fact he doesn't have someone else to insulate him/take away the spotlight does not do him any favours.  Again, that is not on him.

Kessel is what he is -- a sniper who will get you at least 35 goals and nearly a point per game.  He will not run over guys, he will not get "dirty", he won't be confused as a Selke candidate, it's unlikely he will take this team on his back and carry it -- it's not the type of player he is, and that's okay.  As long as he puts up the points, it doesn't matter.  It is a concern that if he isn't scoring he is nearly invisible, but one hopes those stretches are minimized as he matures and grows as a player.

I believe the argument that he was the right player but at the wrong type is completely valid.  But when drafting up a championship calibre roster, a player like Kessel is needed.  We have that already.  It's up to Nonis to do what Burke couldn't do and bring in that piece in which Kessel complements nicely.  Kadri may be that guy, but I'd rather another guy be brought in in which we can run two legitimate scoring pairing threats (XXX-Kessel, Kadri-Lupul).       

Why not just put Lupul back with Kessel, and find Kadri another winger? I guarantee Kessel will rediscover his scoring touch, and Kadri appears to play well with nearly anyone on his wing.

I'd try something like this....

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Kulemin - Kadri - MacArthur
van Riemsdyk -Grabovski- Frattin
McClaren - McClement- Komarov

 

[Coco-puffs]

He is at best a secondary piece, not the centerpiece, of any team that aims to be a perennial playoff team and contender.

I completely agree with this, but this is no fault of his own.  Unfortunately for Kessel, the trade that brought him here and the fact he doesn't have someone else to insulate him/take away the spotlight does not do him any favours.  Again, that is not on him.

Kessel is what he is -- a sniper who will get you at least 35 goals and nearly a point per game.  He will not run over guys, he will not get "dirty", he won't be confused as a Selke candidate, it's unlikely he will take this team on his back and carry it -- it's not the type of player he is, and that's okay.  As long as he puts up the points, it doesn't matter.  It is a concern that if he isn't scoring he is nearly invisible, but one hopes those stretches are minimized as he matures and grows as a player.

I believe the argument that he was the right player but at the wrong type is completely valid.  But when drafting up a championship calibre roster, a player like Kessel is needed.  We have that already.  It's up to Nonis to do what Burke couldn't do and bring in that piece in which Kessel complements nicely.  Kadri may be that guy, but I'd rather another guy be brought in in which we can run two legitimate scoring pairing threats (XXX-Kessel, Kadri-Lupul).       

Why not put Lupul back with Kessel, and find Kadri another winger? I guarantee Kessel will rediscover his scoring touch, and Kadri appears to play well with nearly anyone on his wing.

I'd try something like this....

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Kulemin - Kadri - MacArthur
van Riemsdyk -Grabovski- Frattin
McClaren - McClement- Komarov

Kulemin plays RW and has almost exclusively since he came here...

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JvR - Kadri - Kulemin
MacArthur - Grabovski - Frattin
McClaren - McClement - Komarov/Hamilton

At some point I'd really like to see Kadri between Lupul and Kessel.

 

[Redleaf]

He is at best a secondary piece, not the centerpiece, of any team that aims to be a perennial playoff team and contender.

I completely agree with this, but this is no fault of his own.  Unfortunately for Kessel, the trade that brought him here and the fact he doesn't have someone else to insulate him/take away the spotlight does not do him any favours.  Again, that is not on him.

Kessel is what he is -- a sniper who will get you at least 35 goals and nearly a point per game.  He will not run over guys, he will not get "dirty", he won't be confused as a Selke candidate, it's unlikely he will take this team on his back and carry it -- it's not the type of player he is, and that's okay.  As long as he puts up the points, it doesn't matter.  It is a concern that if he isn't scoring he is nearly invisible, but one hopes those stretches are minimized as he matures and grows as a player.

I believe the argument that he was the right player but at the wrong type is completely valid.  But when drafting up a championship calibre roster, a player like Kessel is needed.  We have that already.  It's up to Nonis to do what Burke couldn't do and bring in that piece in which Kessel complements nicely.  Kadri may be that guy, but I'd rather another guy be brought in in which we can run two legitimate scoring pairing threats (XXX-Kessel, Kadri-Lupul).       

Why not put Lupul back with Kessel, and find Kadri another winger? I guarantee Kessel will rediscover his scoring touch, and Kadri appears to play well with nearly anyone on his wing.

I'd try something like this....

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Kulemin - Kadri - MacArthur
van Riemsdyk -Grabovski- Frattin
McClaren - McClement- Komarov

Kulemin plays RW and has almost exclusively since he came here...

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JvR - Kadri - Kulemin
MacArthur - Grabovski - Frattin
McClaren - McClement - Komarov/Hamilton

At some point I'd really like to see Kadri between Lupul and Kessel.

Wow. Some people are picky.

Switch Mac with Kule. My bad.

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
MacArthur - Kadri - Kulemin
van Riemsdyk -Grabovski- Frattin
McClaren - McClement- Komarov

 

[Optimus Reimer]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they?

I believe Phaneuf is about as close to untouchable as it gets, yes.

Kessel could be another story, but as someone else pointed out, unless you're trading him for a scorer of at least equal ability, the trade totally screws Toronto for another two or three years at least.

Phaneuf untouchable?  OK then.

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

You have noticed that the Leafs current coach, and the one that preceded him, both seem to use Phaneuf for 25-30 minutes a game, right? It should be fairly obvious to anyone that he'd be considered untouchable (to the extent that any player truly can be), regardless of how much you hate his face.

And you swap Kessel for what sounds like a second-line player, suddenly teams focus in on Kadri and that nice little story goes out the window.

There is no logic in trading Kessel unless the player coming to Toronto can produce at least a point per game, which is what Kessel is capable of doing (30 points in 33 games).  We have to remember teams are putting their checking line against Kessel's line, and JVR has stopped going to the front of the net which was making that line successful.

As for Phaneuf, he has cost the team points that the team should have otherwise earned.  Against the Sabres, standing behind the net as the puck went in (Pominville's goal?).  Against the Bruins, backing off Bergeron who tied the game.  He cannot read plays, lacks speed and is prone to losing the puck in his own zone, all of which have cost the team wins.  If anyone is to be traded, it should be Phaneuf, the problem is his salary and obtaining a player or a package that can help the team defensively. 

 

[ZBBM]

I would listen to offers on Kessel and Phanuef this trade deadline.

Well, you may have just cured my recurring nightmare of 'What if a random TMLFan-er became the coach of the Leafs?'

Now I can take solace in the fact that at least they aren't the GM.

So they're untouchable, are they?

I believe Phaneuf is about as close to untouchable as it gets, yes.

Kessel could be another story, but as someone else pointed out, unless you're trading him for a scorer of at least equal ability, the trade totally screws Toronto for another two or three years at least.

Phaneuf untouchable?  OK then.

Why would you have to trade Kessel for another scorer of equal production?  How about someone who scores at 0.75 ppg but who gets dirty once in awhile?  I'd take that person over Kessel anytime.

You have noticed that the Leafs current coach, and the one that preceded him, both seem to use Phaneuf for 25-30 minutes a game, right? It should be fairly obvious to anyone that he'd be considered untouchable (to the extent that any player truly can be), regardless of how much you hate his face.

And you swap Kessel for what sounds like a second-line player, suddenly teams focus in on Kadri and that nice little story goes out the window.

All that proves is that coaches tend to play high-priced defensemen.  Phaneuf's not in the top 10 defensemen in the league, maybe not even in the top 20 or 25.  The idea that he couldn't be traded simply doesn't make sense, no matter how much you may love his face.

And I doubt whether Kadri's current success is entirely a result of the opposition's focus on Kessel.  We'd better hope it isn't, at any rate.

 

[Bonsixx]

All that proves is that coaches tend to play high-priced defensemen.  Phaneuf's not in the top 10 defensemen in the league, maybe not even in the top 20 or 25.  The idea that he couldn't be traded simply doesn't make sense, no matter how much you may love his face.

And I doubt whether Kadri's current success is entirely a result of the opposition's focus on Kessel.  We'd better hope it isn't, at any rate.

Like how the coach was playing high-priced defencemen Komisarek and Liles? I see.

And I'm not saying Phaneuf couldn't be traded, anyone can be traded if the right offer comes along. I'm just saying he won't be traded. Especially not at this year's deadline when the team he captains appears to be on the brink of finally ending a playoff drought.

As for Kadri, he's a talented kid, but he's definitely benefitting from teams focusing more defensive attention on the Kessel line. I like Kadri a lot, but I really doubt he's a legit top-10 NHL scorer.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

And I doubt whether Kadri's current success is entirely a result of the opposition's focus on Kessel.  We'd better hope it isn't, at any rate.

Behindthenet.ca has his quality of competition among the easiest of the fwds.  I suspect that will begin to change, but that's how it is so far.