Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

Well, not to make a thing of it but the last game that Chicago played their 4th line had two guys who've scored 20 in the NHL and one who's scored 17.

I count one, in Versteeg. Bollig, who received the 3rd least ice time among forwards, hasn't even recorded 20 points in his NHL career. I also wonder how much of that ice time was situational, as forwards near the bottom in terms of TOI that night were guys like Ben Smith and Marcus Kruger, who also have no 20 goal seasons between them, but are among the team's more used PKers.

 

[Kin]

I count one, in Versteeg. Bollig, who received the 3rd least ice time among forwards, hasn't even recorded 20 points in his NHL career.

Well, the line they used was Bickell-Handzus-Versteeg so Handzus is the second and Bickell had 18 goals and 40 points in 71 games last year.

Regardless, while there's some truth to what you were saying there when you actually dig through the ice time those teams gave to their 4th lines in their last few games either A) they tended to include guys who were former 20 goal scorers, top 10 picks or freakin' Canadian Olympians or B) they tended to get more towards the 7-8 minute side of things.

 

[Jalili]

Haven't been following along but I'm pretty sure Chicago's 4th line is Bollig - Kruger - Smith

 

[Corn Flake]

So you are comparing the Leafs to contenders, who typically all would be deeper with better quality bottom end players.  Those teams aren't where they are because of how their coaches manage 4th line ice time, they are where they are with the help of really GOOD quality 4th line players.

Again, perspective here is needed.

These are the teams the Leafs should be comparing themselves with, because these are the teams the Leafs are ultimately striving to become as good as or better than.

Of course. You don't think they look at how contenders are structured and steal pages from their playbook? It's one thing to apply that strategy and it's another to acquire and develop the players to fill ALL roles.  Quality depth is a big part of what separates contenders from the rest.

They should be looking at how their roster is built and how it's being used and see the glaring issue that comes with A) having 2 face punchers on the roster and B) having a coach that is overplaying the top line and not using the 4th line. I mean, these are relatively easy problems to fix.

I think the obsessive face puncher debate has been beaten (pardon the pun) to death, but one thought:  The fact over the last month or more, only one of them has been dressed suggests Carlyle is moving away from that mode.  I don't think having one is really that big of a deal and isn't the difference between a team with 26 wins and a team with an extra 4-5 wins. 

I believe that well over a year ago, Carlyle basically said  that it was a short-term thing to have them both in and that over time they would hope to have enough "toughness" throughout the lineup that having to employ 2 goons would become a thing of the past.  Don't quote me on it but I'm positive he said as much.

Overplaying the top line? Our top line averages around 21:00 a night, almost bang on for most top lines on other teams. Especially if you consider how freaking good they have been most of this year, they should be playing a lot.  I think you guys are grasping at straws here to suggest that the top line playing too much is another knock on Carlyle.

The top teams don't have 4th lines that are leaps and bounds ahead of what the Leafs could be putting out there if Orr and McLaren weren't on the roster - and, let's not kid ourselves - they're there mostly because Carlyle wants them there.

Again, both enforcers haven't played in the same game in a very long time so I don't think that argument holds any water, at least not for now.

I can definitely say that the contenders you brought up have at least far more experienced and therefore effective 4th lines.  Then again, McClement is as effective as just about any 4th centre out there, so there's that.  As for using kids on the wings, I think we will see that gradually increase.  Ashton in over McLaren should at least suggest a big step towards what you are pushing for. 

I will defer to Carlyle's quite positive track record of working with a number of young players on this team and how they are improving all the time as a basis for trusting he knows what he's doing, even if on the outside it feels like he's holding them back.

I mean, there's no reason the Leafs can't dress a 4th line of Ashton-McClement-D'Amigo, and play that line 9 or 10 minutes a night on average. That 4th line wouldn't be drastically behind what any of the top teams are putting out there, either. It's not like they're putting a bunch of 20+ goal guys on their 4th lines. They're also filled with grinders, defensive specialist, etc. And, with the top line, it's very possible that less could be more. Instead of burning them out early in the game, let them save some energy for when the team needs them to come through with a late goal - something the team has been painfully bad at this season. The domino effect could also help keep the other lines just a little more rested and help keep them sharp. I mean, it's really not a surprised the Leafs have given up so many late goals and haven't scored many themselves. Guys are being overused because there are others that are being underused or who shouldn't be being used at all.

It's like this team suddenly became full of old geezers or something, and that a 4th line that plays 9-10 vs 6-7 mins is going to be the difference between success and destructive failure.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

You just made your own argument.

I...isn't that what I normally do?

You just did it again!

 

[Kin]

You just did it again!

Well, yeah, but we already have people making James Mirtle's arguments, I figured mine might be a nice change of pace.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I mean, there's no reason the Leafs can't dress a 4th line of Ashton-McClement-D'Amigo, and play that line 9 or 10 minutes a night on average. That 4th line wouldn't be drastically behind what any of the top teams are putting out there, either.

You'd want that line on the ice for 9 - 10 minutes a game? And really? It's not 'drastically' behind what any of the top teams are putting out there?

I mean, I get it, D'Amigo skates hard and bangs but he's shown nothing to suggest he deserves 9 - 10 minutes of NHL ice time. Same goes for Ashton. It's great he had a breakaway and an assist but it doesn't mean that much..really. John Scott scored a goal this year..I'm not ready to trade for him.

I'd love to have a more reliable 4th line that could eat up some more minutes. I just don't think the Leafs have it...Well, not in comparison to the top teams at least.

 

[Spider]

Idealy isn't the breakdown of ice-time the following:

1st line offence - 25 min (includes PP)
2nd line offence - 15 min
3rd line offence - 15 min (includes PK)
4th line offence - 5 min

1st pair defence - 25 min
2nd pair defence - 20 min
3rd pair defence - 15 min

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Idealy isn't the breakdown of ice-time the following:

1st line offence - 25 min (includes PP)
2nd line offence - 15 min
3rd line offence - 15 min (includes PK)
4th line offence - 5 min

1st pair defence - 25 min
2nd pair defence - 20 min
3rd pair defence - 15 min

25 Minutes from your first line of forwards is a bit more than what you'd typically see.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Crosby averages the most ice-time in the league for forwards and he's at 22:09/game.  19-20:00 is typical 1st line minutes.

 

[Deebo]

Crosby averages the most ice-time in the league for forwards and he's at 22:09/game.  19-20:00 is typical 1st line minutes.

Yeah, there are under 30 forwards who average over 20 minutes per game.

 

[bustaheims]

You'd want that line on the ice for 9 - 10 minutes a game? And really? It's not 'drastically' behind what any of the top teams are putting out there?

I mean, I get it, D'Amigo skates hard and bangs but he's shown nothing to suggest he deserves 9 - 10 minutes of NHL ice time. Same goes for Ashton. It's great he had a breakaway and an assist but it doesn't mean that much..really. John Scott scored a goal this year..I'm not ready to trade for him.

I'd love to have a more reliable 4th line that could eat up some more minutes. I just don't think the Leafs have it...Well, not in comparison to the top teams at least.

Yes. I mean, let's be honest - the difference in talent between the top 4th lines and the average 4th lines is pretty minimal. What you really need is a group of guys who skate hard, forecheck well, aren't a complete mess defensively and can occasionally chip in a goal or two. They're really there so that you don't overplay the rest of your players and to provide a little energy by wearing down the opposition with some physical play. A D'Amigo-McClement-Ashton 4th line can accomplish exactly that. D'Amigo, for what it's worth, was averaging 8 minutes a night while he was up, so, I'm not exactly suggesting the team give him significantly more than what they already have. Same with McClement, who averages close to 13 minutes of ES TOI per night - though, less since Holland was brought back. The only player who would see a significant increase in ice time in this situation is Ashton, and, honestly, I don't really care all that much about his point production. I don't expect a lot of offence from the 4th line. If they manage 20 goals between them all season, that's wonderful. What matters is that he's a better player than Orr or McLaren, and one that's capable of playing more than a handful of shifts a night.

So, yeah, I would absolutely want that line out for 9-10 minutes on an average night and that they wouldn't be drastically behind the top 4th lines in the league, because, even the top 4th lines in the league are still largely made up of guys who are 4th line type players who can sometimes fill in as 3rd liners - just like the guys I'm suggesting can do.

 

[bustaheims]

Idealy isn't the breakdown of ice-time the following:

1st line offence - 25 min (includes PP)
2nd line offence - 15 min
3rd line offence - 15 min (includes PK)
4th line offence - 5 min

1st pair defence - 25 min
2nd pair defence - 20 min
3rd pair defence - 15 min

Your defence allotment is close, but your forwards are way off.

1st line - 18-20 minutes
2nd line - 16-18 minutes
3rd line - 12-14 minutes
4th line - 8-10 minutes

As other people have pointed out, even the top forwards in the league aren't getting 25 minutes a night.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Idealy isn't the breakdown of ice-time the following:

1st line offence - 25 min (includes PP)
2nd line offence - 15 min
3rd line offence - 15 min (includes PK)
4th line offence - 5 min

1st pair defence - 25 min
2nd pair defence - 20 min
3rd pair defence - 15 min

25 Minutes from your first line of forwards is a bit more than what you'd typically see.

For sure, plus those numbers seem to assume that no player ever gets a penalty.

 

[pmrules]

You'd want that line on the ice for 9 - 10 minutes a game? And really? It's not 'drastically' behind what any of the top teams are putting out there?

I mean, I get it, D'Amigo skates hard and bangs but he's shown nothing to suggest he deserves 9 - 10 minutes of NHL ice time. Same goes for Ashton. It's great he had a breakaway and an assist but it doesn't mean that much..really. John Scott scored a goal this year..I'm not ready to trade for him.

I'd love to have a more reliable 4th line that could eat up some more minutes. I just don't think the Leafs have it...Well, not in comparison to the top teams at least.

Yes. I mean, let's be honest - the difference in talent between the top 4th lines and the average 4th lines is pretty minimal. What you really need is a group of guys who skate hard, forecheck well, aren't a complete mess defensively and can occasionally chip in a goal or two. They're really there so that you don't overplay the rest of your players and to provide a little energy by wearing down the opposition with some physical play. A D'Amigo-McClement-Ashton 4th line can accomplish exactly that. D'Amigo, for what it's worth, was averaging 8 minutes a night while he was up, so, I'm not exactly suggesting the team give him significantly more than what they already have. Same with McClement, who averages close to 13 minutes of ES TOI per night - though, less since Holland was brought back. The only player who would see a significant increase in ice time in this situation is Ashton, and, honestly, I don't really care all that much about his point production. I don't expect a lot of offence from the 4th line. If they manage 20 goals between them all season, that's wonderful. What matters is that he's a better player than Orr or McLaren, and one that's capable of playing more than a handful of shifts a night.

So, yeah, I would absolutely want that line out for 9-10 minutes on an average night and that they wouldn't be drastically behind the top 4th lines in the league, because, even the top 4th lines in the league are still largely made up of guys who are 4th line type players who can sometimes fill in as 3rd liners - just like the guys I'm suggesting can do.

On a perfectly healthy team, ideally our 4th line is likely D'amigo, McClement, and 1 of Raymond/Kulemin/Clarkson.  That's a line I can throw out there for 8-10 mins a game.

But if the 4th line is Orr-McClement-Mclaren, I have no problems with Ron playing them 3-6 mins a game.  I'd want them out on the ice as little as possible as well.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You'd want that line on the ice for 9 - 10 minutes a game? And really? It's not 'drastically' behind what any of the top teams are putting out there?

I mean, I get it, D'Amigo skates hard and bangs but he's shown nothing to suggest he deserves 9 - 10 minutes of NHL ice time. Same goes for Ashton. It's great he had a breakaway and an assist but it doesn't mean that much..really. John Scott scored a goal this year..I'm not ready to trade for him.

I'd love to have a more reliable 4th line that could eat up some more minutes. I just don't think the Leafs have it...Well, not in comparison to the top teams at least.

Yes. I mean, let's be honest - the difference in talent between the top 4th lines and the average 4th lines is pretty minimal. What you really need is a group of guys who skate hard, forecheck well, aren't a complete mess defensively and can occasionally chip in a goal or two. They're really there so that you don't overplay the rest of your players and to provide a little energy by wearing down the opposition with some physical play. A D'Amigo-McClement-Ashton 4th line can accomplish exactly that. D'Amigo, for what it's worth, was averaging 8 minutes a night while he was up, so, I'm not exactly suggesting the team give him significantly more than what they already have. Same with McClement, who averages close to 13 minutes of ES TOI per night - though, less since Holland was brought back. The only player who would see a significant increase in ice time in this situation is Ashton, and, honestly, I don't really care all that much about his point production. I don't expect a lot of offence from the 4th line. If they manage 20 goals between them all season, that's wonderful. What matters is that he's a better player than Orr or McLaren, and one that's capable of playing more than a handful of shifts a night.

So, yeah, I would absolutely want that line out for 9-10 minutes on an average night and that they wouldn't be drastically behind the top 4th lines in the league, because, even the top 4th lines in the league are still largely made up of guys who are 4th line type players who can sometimes fill in as 3rd liners - just like the guys I'm suggesting can do.

I'm not worried about their offence either. It's their defence that scares the heck out of me. I mean, if the top 3 lines defence is as bad as it looks with Carlyle's coaching, could we imagine what a group of borderline NHLer's(-McClement) would look like?

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not worried about their offence either. It's their defence that scares the heck out of me. I mean, if the top 3 lines defence is as bad as it looks with Carlyle's coaching, could we imagine what a group of borderline NHLer's(-McClement) would look like?

D'Amigo's defensive play is pretty good - not Selke calibre or anything, but definitely good enough to not be a liability. As for Ashton, it's harder to tell, since he hasn't seen a lot of time on the ice and most of is has been spent with guys like Orr, Smith, Smithson, etc.

 

[Bullfrog]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

But with Ashton, his linemates have typically been terrible hockey players. It'd be difficult to get him more time without playing him on the PK or double-shifting a top six forward.

There can be a persuasive argument about playing the worst players on the roster more IF those worst players were better than Orr and McLaren (who admittedly hasn't played much). The team has better options in McClement, Ashton, D'Amigo, and Bodie. With those four, there's no point at all in having the players who can only be trusted for five minutes a night.

 

[TML fan]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

But with Ashton, his linemates have typically been terrible hockey players. It'd be difficult to get him more time without playing him on the PK or double-shifting a top six forward.

There can be a persuasive argument about playing the worst players on the roster more IF those worst players were better than Orr and McLaren (who admittedly hasn't played much). The team has better options in McClement, Ashton, D'Amigo, and Bodie. With those four, there's no point at all in having the players who can only be trusted for five minutes a night.

Well that's what I meant about Nik making his own argument. I guess I didn't say it right, but he basically argued with himself in the same post.

 

[Highlander]

Nik may be bi-polar or bi-coastal at worst..Nik is my favorite commentators on these links next to Nutman whom seems to be developing a tought attitude on our beloved Loafs.