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Reminiscing About The Old (Bad) Days

With the exception of my current existential crisis, the reaction of some people to the Sundin stuff was probably my lowest point as a fan of this franchise. The idea that he needed to be "forgiven" struck me as a really poisonous indictment of the whole notion of being a sports fan.
 
https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/toronto-maple-leafs-captain-mats-sundin-refuses-to-waive-no-trade-clause

?I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time,? Sundin added. ?I have never believed in the concept of a rental player. It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey but for me, in order to appreciate it you have to have been part of the entire journey and that means October through June. I hope everyone will understand and respect my decision.?

Damn right.
 
RedLeaf said:
Michael said:
RedLeaf said:
It?s funny how this has been forgotten with the team we have now, but Sundin refusing to leave to help give the club a jump start on the future left a pretty bad taste in a lot of fans mouths. Sundin was forgiven , as he should have been, but it was still a moment (that should have been handled better) a lot of people believed set the organization back a few years.

There was already lots of debate back then about this. I have to disagree with you. Sundin had a contract and he honored it. If the Leafs wanted to break that contract to better themselves at his expense and he would not go for it, the fault is not with him. How was this ever allowed to be a story anyway? The answer to that is more mismanagement.

Frankly, if you are happy with Tavares then you better check to be sure you do not have a double standard on this issue.  ;D

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about exactly?

When you wrote "Sundin refusing to leave to help the club" I assumed you were in that camp which believed that he owed it to the Leafs to take a trade. If not, then we don't disagree.
 
My first live Leaf game Keon was still a leaf. Eddie Shack still played too. Ron Ellis, Salming, Turnbull, Lanny - and I was at Rocky Saginuk's debut. He scored.

The pain from the 70's and 80's is a distant memory. More recently, the Raycroft trade didn't bother me too much because I felt the team in general wasn't very good anyway at that time.

I was never a fan of Brian Burke's body of work, him coming to Toronto really shook me as a fan. The 3rd prriod playoff collapse was a backbreaker too.

...and yes, it sure feels good to see the Leafs going in the right direction. Just seeing consistently good hockey is a treat.
 
I have been a Maple Leafs fan since the '70's.  First ever series of games watched was the Canada-Russia '72 when as a young kid in grade school, we in the classroom all had eyes riveted on the television set.  It wasn't too long after that that I became interested in the Leafs and in hockey in earnest, partially thanks to my (late) brother.

Anyways, nothing for me compares, in terms of sheer, utter disappointment and embarrassment and whatever words or description come bearing in that format, as the "Collapse on the Causeway" of the 2013 playoffs vs Boston. 

Nothing, not even the Ballard era ( both fun, frustrating & controversial), not even the drab, lowly 1980's, not even the OT loss to the Gretzky-led Kings, not even the OT loss to the Hurricanes, nothing at all compares to the above-mentioned event.  To see the Leafs collapse as they did, in the manner in which they did, how they did, etc., left a very bitter taste, so to speak, to a Leafs fan who thought she had seen it all.

The only thing that may compare would be the Leafs failing to beat Les Habitants ("the Flying Frenchmen") in the 1978 Semi-Finals, after having knocked out the NYIslanders via Lanny McDonald's OT series-winning goal.  Coach Roger Nielson had the right strategy against the Islanders but failed miserably against Les Habs.  A fellow classmate of mine in Grade 8 told me once.."Don't worry Lora, the Leafs will win when the Montreal Canadiens all break their legs". Oh well, he was joking.

All that's past now, and onward we go, looking forward to better days, better hopes, better dreams, and the inevitable result which will land us Lord Stanley's Silver Chalice at some point in time.  Can't wait!  :)
 
Either because of people's age or because of a recency bias, the Boston lost seems to be getting more play here than I expected.

Imagine this, if you were not around back then....... or even if you were:

When Roger Neilson replaced Kelly in 1977, Ballard faced a new problem: a coach who preferred improving the team over hanging out with the owner. Players raved about Neilson?s unconventional coaching methods, while the media dubbed him ?Captain Video? for his use of videotape to analyze the team?s performance. An envious Ballard devised unsuccessful attempts to embarrass Neilson, such as distracting his video review sessions on the road by sending a prostitute to his hotel room. Despite taking the team to the semi-finals during the 1978 playoffs, Ballard was eager to dispose of Neilson. The situation devolved into farce when, after retracting a March 1979 firing attempt when he couldn?t secure a replacement, Ballard tried to convince Neilson to approach the bench with a paper bag over his head. Neilson refused to go along.

Link
 
Michael said:
Either because of people's age or because of a recency bias, the Boston lost seems to be getting more play here than I expected.

Imagine this, if you were not around back then....... or even if you were:

When Roger Neilson replaced Kelly in 1977, Ballard faced a new problem: a coach who preferred improving the team over hanging out with the owner. Players raved about Neilson?s unconventional coaching methods, while the media dubbed him ?Captain Video? for his use of videotape to analyze the team?s performance. An envious Ballard devised unsuccessful attempts to embarrass Neilson, such as distracting his video review sessions on the road by sending a prostitute to his hotel room. Despite taking the team to the semi-finals during the 1978 playoffs, Ballard was eager to dispose of Neilson. The situation devolved into farce when, after retracting a March 1979 firing attempt when he couldn?t secure a replacement, Ballard tried to convince Neilson to approach the bench with a paper bag over his head. Neilson refused to go along.

Link

Yeah, I was there back then.  And so were some of the older posters on this site, I presume.

Have you ever read the book entitled "67: The Leafs, their Sensational Victory, and the End of an Empire", written by Damien Cox & Gord Stellick?  Chronicles how these supposedly washed up players won a Cup they had no business winning in the year 1967.  It also details the brutal way in which Ballard & the Silver Seven ruthlessly made life miserable for the players, Ballard's mistreatment of Keon, Stafford Smythe who somehow got his owner father out, the repugnant personality of Punch Imlach, and so much more.

It's no surprise to have read of the tactics the crusty and bastardly Ballard would go to to get his way, as the article you posted proved concerning Roger Nielson. 


I firmly remember, back in the very early '80's, my brother was working at a drug store/pharmacy downtown and one of the workers there was a friend/acquaintance of  Ballard.  When my brother asked him about whether Ballard wants to win a Cup, if he knew anything of that ilk or not,  the reply, with emphasis, was:  "Son, Harold E. Ballard does not want a Stanley Cup!"
My brother, upon his return home, said to me: " Told you, I was a hundred per cent correct when I deduced that Ballard could care less to win the Cup".  I continued to refuse to believe, clinging to my somewhat misplaced belief that the Leafs would win soon. All true, as we Leaf fans of the day would come to the conclusion that all Ballard cared about was $$$, and nothing else.


The fact that Ballard went to jail (criminal financial activity) shows the character of the man from the outset.  Another thing people may not know is that his wife Dorothy died of cancer, and some people believe it was after the death of his wife whom he called "the most loving, gentle Christian", that he became a gruffer, meaner, and more devious person. 
He was part of the "Silver Seven", a business group that oversaw the Leafs operation, that included Stafford Smythe, and that engaged in dubious activities (prostitutes & drugs) even though many of these men including Ballard were married.
 
Michael said:
Either because of people's age or because of a recency bias, the Boston lost seems to be getting more play here than I expected.

Further to my response,  what's it got to do with "people's age"??  Are you making things up in your head?

May I serve to remind you that what happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs in that 2013 playoff series vs Boston,  was one of the biggest (or worse) Stanley Cup collapses in NHL playoff history.
 
This discussion reminded me of this tweet that I really liked:

https://twitter.com/FilipeDimas/status/993695868992700416
 
hockeyfan1 said:
Further to my response,  what's it got to do with "people's age"??  Are you making things up in your head?

May I serve to remind you that what happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs in that 2013 playoff series vs Boston,  was one of the biggest (or worse) Stanley Cup collapses in NHL playoff history.

Well, for one thing, if someone is too young to have lived through the 70's and 80's it will tend to skew their opinion away from those years. Fair enough. That makes sense to me and I am sure it has the potential to be a factor for someone in their 20's or even 30's.

Even if it was singularly the worst collapse of all time, it is still one game, or even one period. As much as that felt like a gut shot for most Leafs fans, for me it does not compare to the feeling of having insult heaped upon insult, literally for decades. For instance, it is doubtful that the Leafs lost many true fans as a result of that Boston game, but in the 70's and 80's almost everyone I grew up with abandoned the Leafs in favor of Boston, Montreal, Philly etc. 
 
Michael said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Further to my response,  what's it got to do with "people's age"??  Are you making things up in your head?

May I serve to remind you that what happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs in that 2013 playoff series vs Boston,  was one of the biggest (or worse) Stanley Cup collapses in NHL playoff history.

Well, for one thing, if someone is too young to have lived through the 70's and 80's it will tend to skew their opinion away from those years. Fair enough. That makes sense to me and I am sure it has the potential to be a factor for someone in their 20's or even 30's.

Even if it was singularly the worst collapse of all time, it is still one game, or even one period. As much as that felt like a gut shot for most Leafs fans, for me it does not compare to the feeling of having insult heaped upon insult, literally for decades. For instance, it is doubtful that the Leafs lost many true fans as a result of that Boston game, but in the 70's and 80's almost everyone I grew up with abandoned the Leafs in favor of Boston, Montreal, Philly etc.

Thinking back to grade school in the late 70's early 80's there were no kids that were Leaf fans in school.  I really didn't become a full blown fan until the early 90's playoff runs. 
 
Yeah, the Boston thing was bad at the time and felt like another in a long line of tough things to deal with as a Leafs fan but with some hindsight now I'm not overly upset by it. They were kind of a smoke and mirrors playoff team who very nearly got eliminated early in the series and ran out of gas. Even if they had beaten Boston the idea that they would have made any real noise outside of the first round is pretty far fetched. The manner in which they got beat sucked but that team wasn't doing anything that year.

By comparison, the Conference finals losses to Buffalo and Carolina sting a little bit more because I really think the Leafs had the better team.
 
Frycer14 said:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/toronto-maple-leafs-captain-mats-sundin-refuses-to-waive-no-trade-clause

?I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time,? Sundin added. ?I have never believed in the concept of a rental player. It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey but for me, in order to appreciate it you have to have been part of the entire journey and that means October through June. I hope everyone will understand and respect my decision.?

Damn right.

This sounded good at the time but then when he joined the Canucks half way through the next season it kind of rang hollow.

I still love Sundin and what he did with/for the Leafs but this definately did not sit well with me.

 
Can8899 said:
Frycer14 said:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/toronto-maple-leafs-captain-mats-sundin-refuses-to-waive-no-trade-clause

?I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time,? Sundin added. ?I have never believed in the concept of a rental player. It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey but for me, in order to appreciate it you have to have been part of the entire journey and that means October through June. I hope everyone will understand and respect my decision.?

Damn right.

This sounded good at the time but then when he joined the Canucks half way through the next season it kind of rang hollow.

I still love Sundin and what he did with/for the Leafs but this definately did not sit well with me.

If definitely left a bad taste in Leafs fans mouths, because yes, the player has the guaranteed contract and the right to refuse a trade, but in EVERY OTHER instance of this, players just waive and help their team out.  But for Leafs fans, we always seem to get the short end of the stick.  Sundin's reasoning was he didn't think it was right to not start the season with a team and go mid-way at the trade deadline, and then the following year he sits out half a season and joins the Canucks midway through lol.  So yeah it bugged me too. 

That's long gone though, and who knows if the Leafs are the same trajectory today if he did agree to a trade and we loaded up on picks/prospects.  Maybe all those lean years aren't so lean and we never get Shanahan?  Hard to say.
 
Zee said:
That's long gone though, and who knows if the Leafs are the same trajectory today if he did agree to a trade and we loaded up on picks/prospects.  Maybe all those lean years aren't so lean and we never get Shanahan?  Hard to say.

The rumoured trade for Sundin was so meh though. Wasn't it just picks and like Chris Higgins? And we can be pretty sure Fletcher and Burke would have just wasted the draft selections on scrubs anyway.
 
Zee said:
But for Leafs fans, we always seem to get the short end of the stick. 

Or if Sundin wasn't as dedicated to the Leafs as he was, if he was that interested in chasing titles, then he could have left the Leafs long before that on his own volition and gone to a better circumstance of his own choosing. In which case, as before, poor Leafs fans get the short end of the stick of watching a HOF player for the prime years of his career but don't get to capitalize on the assets he could be flogged for.

 
Yea, there are alot of lose-lose scenarios for Sundin here. I still don't understand the Vancouver thing though; I was hoping he'd finish up his career in T.O.


Edit: I echo the Buffalo and Carolina frustration. Hasek missed the first two games and we got stymied by Dwayne freaking Rolson game 1 and then against Carolina we get stymied for an entire round by Arthurs freaking Irbe. I mean, come ON!
 
Andy said:
Yea, there are alot of lose-lose scenarios for Sundin here. I still don't understand the Vancouver thing though; I was hoping he'd finish up his career in T.O.

It should be pointed out that Sundin only went to Vancouver after Burke closed the door on him returning to Toronto.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Andy said:
Yea, there are alot of lose-lose scenarios for Sundin here. I still don't understand the Vancouver thing though; I was hoping he'd finish up his career in T.O.

It should be pointed out that Sundin only went to Vancouver after Burke closed the door on him returning to Toronto.

See, I don't know any of the behind the scenes in this matter. Is that really what happened; they refused to bring him back for another year?
 
Andy said:
See, I don't know any of the behind the scenes in this matter. Is that really what happened; they refused to bring him back for another year?

Mats Sundin had interest in returning to the Toronto Maple Leafs, but the feeling wasn't mutual.

New Leafs president and general manager Brian Burke said on Thursday, a few hours after the Vancouver Canucks announced that they had signed Sundin to a one-year contract, that he closed the door to any possible return to Toronto by the former Leafs captain.

Burke was asked in the first intermission of the Leafs 8-5 loss to the Boston Bruins, whether there was interest from Sundin in playing this season in Toronto.

"I would say from talking to Mats he has a soft spot for Toronto," Burke said. "We had lengthy conversations with him. Again, I don't think it was the right fit or right direction for us right now."

This philosophy was different from Burke's predecessor, interim general manager Cliff Fletcher. He offered Sundin a one-year $7-million (U.S.) no-trade contract in the summer and kept that pact on the table when the two met in Toronto on Sept. 5.

Toronto coach Ron Wilson was asked if he was disappointed that Sundin decided on the Canucks.

"We're not a fit for Mats right now," Wilson said. "We're not going to win a Stanley Cup right now. I don't know if Vancouver is either, to be perfectly honest.

"He's gone to a place that he feels comfortable with, playing with the Sedins [Daniel and Henrik] They will be a pretty good team when they get their goalie [Roberto Luongo]back."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/burke-closed-door-on-sundin-return/article20391279/
 

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