Rick Nash potentially available

[Tigger]

A couple things to consider, forwards generally start scoring less after the age of 27 and Nash was due to be an ufa before he got that big contract so the money he's making is in part due to past performance, Kessel isn't there yet.

Right now Kessel is providing more bang for the buck, I wouldn't trade them one for one.

...and McLean isn't exactly unbiased here so taking his view with a big grain, there are only a couple players from the Leafs I wouldn't trade for him.

 

[Zee]

A couple things to consider, forwards generally start scoring less after the age of 27 and Nash was due to be an ufa before he got that big contract so the money he's making is in part due to past performance, Kessel isn't there yet.

Right now Kessel is providing more bang for the buck, I wouldn't trade them one for one.

...and McLean isn't exactly unbiased here so taking his view with a big grain, there are only a couple players from the Leafs I wouldn't trade for him.

I'm with you on this.  People hear the name "Rick Nash" and immediately think he's worth giving up major pieces and prospects for.. I just don't get it.  He's going to be 28 and is at the point where he might start to slow down/break down.  He's not in the same league as guys like Stamkos, Malkin or Crosby (when he was healthy) who have proven they can lead their team and league in points.  I'm not saying he's not a great player, but I don't think he's worth as much as people are making out, ESPECIALLY at his contract hit.

 

[maplesyrup]

I don't think MacLean is crazy (in this case.) Not that I believe Kessel is going to be traded for Nash but if the opportunity presented itself to do a 1 for 1, I'd do it because I think Nash is just the better player. Nash is what? Only 3 years older? No disrespect to Kessel but Nash is just the bigger, more complete player.

Nash is living off his name and draft position at this point.  He's supposedly a bona fide superstar, let's see him prove it.  28 years old, he should be at the peak of his potential RIGHT NOW. Kessel hasn't even hit his peak yet at 24-25.

Like someone else mentioned though, even if you consider the deal even, it makes zero sense for the Leafs to remove Kessel off the top line and put Nash in.  How does that put the team further ahead?  You take away your top scorer and *hope* that Nash becomes your top scorer which is no guarantee.

It does make zero sense for both teams but to be honest with you, if both were UFAs, Kessel would be my second choice (and really not a bad one.) Nash is a career .81 pts. per game player, while Kessel is a full ten points behind. If we were going to lay out all the qualities that make up a great hockey player, Kessel likely beats out Nash in speed only. - Unless I'm missing something. Moreover, I think BOTH players have ample room to get better.

Kessel is the younger player and is just starting to reach his full potential. It's worth noting since you mentioned the points per game average that in the last THREE SEASONS:

Kessel .86 points/game
Nash .81 points/game

I'd say Kessel is starting to show he can be a premier player in the league, and Nash, at an older age, is no further ahead right now.

Fair point, Zee... I'd just like to have the more complete guy... There'e probably less warts on Nash then there are on Kessel.

 

[ZBBM]

What's Nash's +/- compared with Kessel's?

On the face of it I'd rather have Nash than Kessel because of the physicality.  If Nash is better defenisvely (I don't know one way or the other) that gives him the edge in my book.

Purely academic discussion, of course.

 

[Corn Flake]

Most important question: who would lose more anonymous polls conducted by SI... Nash or Kessel?

 

[Tigger]

A couple things to consider, forwards generally start scoring less after the age of 27 and Nash was due to be an ufa before he got that big contract so the money he's making is in part due to past performance, Kessel isn't there yet.

Right now Kessel is providing more bang for the buck, I wouldn't trade them one for one.

...and McLean isn't exactly unbiased here so taking his view with a big grain, there are only a couple players from the Leafs I wouldn't trade for him.

I'm with you on this.  People hear the name "Rick Nash" and immediately think he's worth giving up major pieces and prospects for.. I just don't get it.  He's going to be 28 and is at the point where he might start to slow down/break down.  He's not in the same league as guys like Stamkos, Malkin or Crosby (when he was healthy) who have proven they can lead their team and league in points.  I'm not saying he's not a great player, but I don't think he's worth as much as people are making out, ESPECIALLY at his contract hit.

Yeah, I wouldn't break the bank for him though he'd be a great addition, just a tough chew to me when I think of both the cost to acquire and the cap hit.

Like I said before I'd rather go after Parise ( and more importantly Suter ) in the offseason than this. Frankly, I think there are a couple kids that are knocking on the door, the Leafs could be further ahead looking to deal some salary at the deadline this year, get some picks/prospects and gear up for July 1.

Of course all the good ufa's might be gone too so it's a gamble either way.

 

[bustaheims]

What's Nash's +/- compared with Kessel's?

On the face of it I'd rather have Nash than Kessel because of the physicality.  If Nash is better defenisvely (I don't know one way or the other) that gives him the edge in my book.

Purely academic discussion, of course.

+/- is a pretty terrible statistic to use to compare players, especially on different teams, but, Nash does currently sport a team worst -23 (2nd worst in the NHL, for the little that it's worth). He also doesn't get any PK time of note (averaging 29 seconds a game), so, it's probably fair to say his coaching staff doesn't think all that highly of his defensive play.

 

[Kin]

He also doesn't get any PK time of note (averaging 29 seconds a game), so, it's probably fair to say his coaching staff doesn't think all that highly of his defensive play.

Although under Hitchcock he had back to back 38 and 40 goal seasons where he had 2:13 and 2:34 of SH ice time a night(and had 4 and then 5 SH goals) and was a + player both seasons. I think a lot of this has more to do with the total incompetence in Columbus' management than any limitations on Rick Nash.

 

[bustaheims]

Although under Hitchcock he had back to back 38 and 40 goal seasons where he had 2:13 and 2:34 of SH ice time a night(and had 4 and then 5 SH goals) and was a + player both seasons. I think a lot of this has more to do with the total incompetence in Columbus' management than any limitations on Rick Nash.

Conversely, those PK number could also have a lot to do with Hitchcock's philosophy that "star" player need to be able to kill penalties and a lack of overall talent on those rosters rather than being a reflection on Nash's actual defensive abilities.

 

[Kin]

Conversely, those PK number could also have a lot to do with Hitchcock's philosophy that "star" player need to be able to kill penalties and a lack of overall talent on those rosters rather than being a reflection on Nash's actual defensive abilities.

Maybe. But those PK's were pretty good despite the lack of talent on the team(9th and 13th) and at that point the line between being a good penalty killer and the ability to be a big part of a pretty decent PK is so thin that it's pretty meaningless.

Personally, I've only really seen him in international play but every time I have seen him he came off as a pretty effin' good all around player.

 

[bustaheims]

Personally, I've only really seen him in international play but every time I have seen him he came off as a pretty effin' good all around player.

Fair enough. While I wouldn't say I've seen enough of him to say I've seen a number of defensive deficiencies in his game, I wouldn't say I've seen anything that says he's a defensive stalwart either. My guess is, based on the evidence at hand and what I've seen of him, he's rather ordinary defensively.

 

[Kin]

Fair enough. While I wouldn't say I've seen enough of him to say I've seen a number of defensive deficiencies in his game, I wouldn't say I've seen anything that says he's a defensive stalwart either. My guess is, based on the evidence at hand and what I've seen of him, he's rather ordinary defensively.

The thing that stands out to me numbers wise are the short handed goals, 11 in the last three years he was killing penalties. That strikes me as being a pretty significant weapon to have out there regardless of whatever we might say about his defensive abilities.

A problem, though, is that his lack of talented teammates really does make it tough to judge him subjectively. If he's bringing most of the team's offense he probably can't be as defensively responsible as he otherwise would be.

Really, regardless of where he goes, I just want to see him traded as a fan of the game. Every time I've seen him for an extended stretch he seems like the kind of player who can be a force with talented linemates and keeping him in that trainwreck of a situation in Columbus just doesn't seem right.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think to go along the lines of what Nik is saying, its safe to say that if he gets moved..at some point shortly afterward, he is going to absolutely explode offensively.  Probably at that point, all this questioning of him being a legit star player or not will be long gone.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Some say Nash (at 28) has already peaked as a forward.  Others say the best years (offensively) are yet to come for him.

Frankly, the answer may lie somewhere in-between.  While Rick Nash being with the Blue Jackets and as lousy a team as they've been, may not have shown full potential, compared to if he had been with a more productive better team (with better linemates too) , there's no telling just what kind of player he will be to a team like the Leafs.

Burke would be taking a gamble on a player like Nash as the situation stands right now.  A team like the Leafs can ill afford a package of players for Nash, unless the Leafs had the depth already to do so, and can part with whomever they want.  No, the Leafs are not in that position.

As much as I've always dreamt of Nash in a Leafs uniform, I think he'd be better suited for a team with the depth and the affordability to trade for him. 

 

[cw]

Man McLean on hockeycentral is an idiot.  He thinks Rick Nash is worth anyone on the Leafs roster, said he would trade Kessel for him. 

I'm an idiot too then. 

Talent vs talent, I'd take Nash over Kessel and lose no sleep over it. I think it would take more than Kessel to land Nash. Kessel will be a UFA after next season pulling Nash-like money so contractually, since the Leafs are kind of capped out next year, I'm not sure there's a ton of difference between the two on a dollars basis.

I think this team needs a center more than a winger. I don't think Carter is an ideal center for Kessel because they're both goal scorers - Carter has never been a strong distributor of the puck. But Carter could center a 1B line. Good top six centers are harder to come by so Carter is who I'd be more interested in but I wouldn't be knocked out if they acquired him unless it was a steal of a trade.

The bigger problem I'm having is trying to figure out what the direction of this club is. They're cap constrained this year and next. After that, they only have 8 players under contract:
http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=4
So I'm struggling to figure out how Burke is trying to constructing a Cup caliber club - where one would hope there is an identifiable point in time where they would peak in price performance and therefore, be a contender. I'm not seeing where that point in time might be with anything beyond very loose conjecture.

Without that, I don't know what to make of adding Nash at this point in time. He's a better player than he's shown in Columbus. But I'd like to understand  how this will all fit together someday to truly contend. We've gone from retooling to kind of rebuilding when retooling fell short of the playoffs and now, I'm not sure where this roster is at.

 

[Zee]

Man McLean on hockeycentral is an idiot.  He thinks Rick Nash is worth anyone on the Leafs roster, said he would trade Kessel for him. 

I'm an idiot too then. 

Sorry Doug :-/

 

[Sudafederov]

Kessel will be a UFA after next season

2014 No?

 

[Zee]

Kessel will be a UFA after next season

2014 No?

Yeah Kessel has 2 full seasons left on this deal and if at that point he's a point a game player still then he deserves Nash type money. Nash doesn't deserve Nash type money the way he is playing now.

 

[Tigger]

Man McLean on hockeycentral is an idiot.  He thinks Rick Nash is worth anyone on the Leafs roster, said he would trade Kessel for him. 

I'm an idiot too then. 

Kessel aside the only other player I've had an issue with in terms of a trade is Gardiner, fwiw.

 

[Swede]

Kessel will be a UFA after next season

2014 No?

2014 no ??????
Are you telling me it is 2014 or asking ?
Sounds confusing when you say it like that.
Or should I say sounds confusing NO?
Or sounds confusing yes??
now everyone is confused