Sabres @ Leafs - Nov. 16th, 7:00pm - CBC, TSN 1050

[Bender]

Wow, Gunnarsson played 26:14, two minutes more than Phaneuf.

I don't think Gunnar gets nearly as much credit around the league as he should. He's a solid guy for us.

He's one of the better D at taking the body, blocking shots, etc.  But his puck skills are the worst of all the defensemen on the team.

Worse than Fraser?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It's certainly not Wilson's style that contributed to that. I mean, that would smack right in the faces of everyone that screams that Carlyle's system is at fault for an average team being 12-7-1 to start the season.

Despite what everyone is screaming about and as painful as it is to watch this team, if you were to open this team up and play Wilson's style, with their 3 top C's out, this team would be 7-12-1 at best.

They simply don't have the defensive skill to play the wide open hockey that Wilson implemented and demanded. The goaltending may lead to a slightly better result than Wilson's, but not much. Not in my opinion anyways.

I'll completely agree with everyone that dressing two fighters a game is a move that doesn't make sense. Other than that, I don't have any real issue with Carlyle's "system"...I mean the team is 5 games over .500 playing without key players all year.

Without any stats or anything, you can't honestly watch the games and tell me this Leafs team gives up less high quality scoring chances than the teams under Wilson.  It's a nice narrative and all, but every time I watch a Leafs game this year other teams are hemming the Leafs in and constantly getting great chances that Bernier or Reimer have to bail the team out on.

Everyone forgets that Reimer had a similar stretch under Wilson in a similar number of games as he did last season under Carlyle.  Reimer struggled when he was injured.  His ability to perform just as well under Wilson suggests (along with the link I posted above) that the goalies are what the goalies are.

Given even a league average goaltending tandem they should have made the playoffs: http://theleafsnation.com/2012/4/3/with-average-goaltending-the-leafs-would-have-made-the-playoffs

I don't even care so much about the goaltending - I think from the eyesight test that the team as a whole played better under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  And I'm sorry, I don't see a coach being able to coach a 12% shooting percentage out of team that he got last season and which contributed greatly to their success in a short season.

I don't necessarily disagree with you that the team gets caught in their own zone....a lot. Like I said, they are painful to watch.

I personally think it's less to do with the coaching 'system' and more to do with the personnel on the ice. Call me crazy, but I don't see a lot of defensive prowess out there and I certainly see a tonne of errors being made by the likes of Cody Franson and others that have absolutely zero to do with the coaching system and more to do with brain dead plays.

I've said it before, the coach does the best he can with what he has. I simply can not see this team succeeding with a wide open style game.

I realize that the coach will always be the first to go. I just don't think it's so easy to blame him for all this team's shortcomings.

 

[TML fan]

It's certainly not Wilson's style that contributed to that. I mean, that would smack right in the faces of everyone that screams that Carlyle's system is at fault for an average team being 12-7-1 to start the season.

Despite what everyone is screaming about and as painful as it is to watch this team, if you were to open this team up and play Wilson's style, with their 3 top C's out, this team would be 7-12-1 at best.

They simply don't have the defensive skill to play the wide open hockey that Wilson implemented and demanded. The goaltending may lead to a slightly better result than Wilson's, but not much. Not in my opinion anyways.

I'll completely agree with everyone that dressing two fighters a game is a move that doesn't make sense. Other than that, I don't have any real issue with Carlyle's "system"...I mean the team is 5 games over .500 playing without key players all year.

Without any stats or anything, you can't honestly watch the games and tell me this Leafs team gives up less high quality scoring chances than the teams under Wilson.  It's a nice narrative and all, but every time I watch a Leafs game this year other teams are hemming the Leafs in and constantly getting great chances that Bernier or Reimer have to bail the team out on.

Everyone forgets that Reimer had a similar stretch under Wilson in a similar number of games as he did last season under Carlyle.  Reimer struggled when he was injured.  His ability to perform just as well under Wilson suggests (along with the link I posted above) that the goalies are what the goalies are.

Given even a league average goaltending tandem they should have made the playoffs: http://theleafsnation.com/2012/4/3/with-average-goaltending-the-leafs-would-have-made-the-playoffs

I don't even care so much about the goaltending - I think from the eyesight test that the team as a whole played better under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  And I'm sorry, I don't see a coach being able to coach a 12% shooting percentage out of team that he got last season and which contributed greatly to their success in a short season.

I don't necessarily disagree with you that the team gets caught in their own zone....a lot. Like I said, they are painful to watch.

I personally think it's less to do with the coaching 'system' and more to do with the personnel on the ice. Call me crazy, but I don't see a lot of defensive prowess out there and I certainly see a tonne of errors being made by the likes of Cody Franson and others that have absolutely zero to do with the coaching system and more to do with brain dead plays.

I've said it before, the coach does the best he can with what he has. I simply can not see this team succeeding with a wide open style game.

I realize that the coach will always be the first to go. I just don't think it's so easy to blame him for all this team's shortcomings.

You're right. There isn't a lot of defensive prowess. That begs the question: why is Carlyle coaching them in a defensive system?

You're also correct that he is doing the best he can with what he has, but that speaks more to Carlyle's inability to adapt, and why he's the type of coach with a short shelf life, than it does to the Leafs overall ability as a team.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You're right. There isn't a lot of defensive prowess. That begs the question: why is Carlyle coaching them in a defensive system?

You're also correct that he is doing the best he can with what he has, but that speaks more to Carlyle's inability to adapt, and why he's the type of coach with a short shelf life, than it does to the Leafs overall ability as a team.

He's coaching them in a defensive system to make up for their lack of defensive ability. Right or wrong, that's why he's doing it. As a hockey coach, I agree with that thought process. It's not like he can say, we have such an offensive team, screw defense...Let's be honest, beyond Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JvR, there's not much out there that's going to put the puck in the net.

Also, not once have I seen Kessel or Lupul held back from working some magic. If anything, Kessel is a better player because of Carlyle's 'system'.

 

[TML fan]

You're right. There isn't a lot of defensive prowess. That begs the question: why is Carlyle coaching them in a defensive system?

You're also correct that he is doing the best he can with what he has, but that speaks more to Carlyle's inability to adapt, and why he's the type of coach with a short shelf life, than it does to the Leafs overall ability as a team.

He's coaching them in a defensive system to make up for their lack of defensive ability. Right or wrong, that's why he's doing it. As a hockey coach, I agree with that thought process. It's not like he can say, we have such an offensive team, screw defense...Let's be honest, beyond Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JvR, there's not much out there that's going to put the puck in the net.

Also, not once have I seen Kessel or Lupul held back from working some magic. If anything, Kessel is a better player because of Carlyle's 'system'.

Who's saying screw defence? You still have to play defence. You just don't have to do it all the time at the expense of offence which is what the style he employs is designed to do. It's not one or the other.

I think game 7 eloquently demonstrates why I disagree with Carlyle's system.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You're right. There isn't a lot of defensive prowess. That begs the question: why is Carlyle coaching them in a defensive system?

You're also correct that he is doing the best he can with what he has, but that speaks more to Carlyle's inability to adapt, and why he's the type of coach with a short shelf life, than it does to the Leafs overall ability as a team.

He's coaching them in a defensive system to make up for their lack of defensive ability. Right or wrong, that's why he's doing it. As a hockey coach, I agree with that thought process. It's not like he can say, we have such an offensive team, screw defense...Let's be honest, beyond Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JvR, there's not much out there that's going to put the puck in the net.

Also, not once have I seen Kessel or Lupul held back from working some magic. If anything, Kessel is a better player because of Carlyle's 'system'.

Who's saying screw defence? You still have to play defence. You just don't have to do it all the time at the expense of offence which is what the style he employs is designed to do. It's not one or the other.

I think game 7 eloquently demonstrates why I disagree with Carlyle's system.

I think game 7 points directly at a team that is prone to collapse at any point of the game system or not.

And I get what you're saying about playing both offense and defense. It sounds from what Carlyle is saying that he wants that. He wants a puck possession team that controls the play. Unfortunately when you are lacking the talent, it's not an easy thing to do.

 

[bustaheims]

The "lack of defensive ability" has very little to do with their defensive woes. It's that the system Carlyle is employing is not the right fit for the type of players the Leafs have. Many teams have had success defensively without having any clear defensive talent. Look at the Wild, who were successful with the trap for years - they just didn't have the offensive talent to pair with it. Or the Lightning, who took a suspect roster and questionable goaltending to the Conference Final playing the 1-3-1. Or the Devils in 2012 - not exactly a roster brimming with talent, but, coached well enough to play a solid defensive game every night. There are a number of potential defensive systems this team could be using, and a few of them could very well work out much better than the one Carlyle has stubbornly stuck to.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The "lack of defensive ability" has very little to do with their defensive woes. It's that the system Carlyle is employing is not the right fit for the type of players the Leafs have. Many teams have had success defensively without having any clear defensive talent. Look at the Wild, who were successful with the trap for years - they just didn't have the offensive talent to pair with it. Or the Lightning, who took a suspect roster and questionable goaltending to the Conference Final playing the 1-3-1. Or the Devils in 2012 - not exactly a roster brimming with talent, but, coached well enough to play a solid defensive game every night. There are a number of potential defensive systems this team could be using, and a few of them could very well work out much better than the one Carlyle has stubbornly stuck to.

Hey, I'm not saying his ways are perfect. Like I've said, it's painful to watch. Heck, I watched about 5 minutes of the 3rd Saturday night and I just about threw my remote through the TV.

In the case of everyone calling out Carlyle I take more issue with people thinking that Wilson's system would lead to better results.

For one, it's a complete guess on their parts. 2, until this team starts losing, why would a coach change a system that got them to the playoffs last year and has started them off with a 12-7-1 record?

 

[bustaheims]

For one, it's a complete guess on their parts. 2, until this team starts losing, why would a coach change a system that got them to the playoffs last year and has started them off with a 12-7-1 record?

Well, for one, despite the winning record, they really haven't been the better team in many of their games so far. A good coach would recognize that (which, granted, Carlyle has) and do something about it. Secondly, they've lost 4 of their last 6 games, and have scored more than 1 actual goal once in that stretch - a pretty clear indicator that something has to be done, and that, considering the warning signs, that something should have been done already. So, it could very well be argued that they already have started losing. Thirdly, Carlyle has openly recognized that what they're trying to do defensively isn't working, and yet, he hasn't appeared to have tried to change their approach - in some worlds, that would be considered insanity.

 

[moon111]

I don't think we have seen Carlyle's system yet.  First statement he made was to ice
stay-at-home D-men over more talented, but less defensively aware D-men last season.  Now he has Phaneuf and Gardiner holding back their risky offensive moves in favor of defense.  Grabovski wouldn't listen, he's gone.  Yes one could say players would be 'more' successful if you played them to their strengths, but the team will only get better if you work on their weaknesses.

 

[TML fan]

You're right. There isn't a lot of defensive prowess. That begs the question: why is Carlyle coaching them in a defensive system?

You're also correct that he is doing the best he can with what he has, but that speaks more to Carlyle's inability to adapt, and why he's the type of coach with a short shelf life, than it does to the Leafs overall ability as a team.

He's coaching them in a defensive system to make up for their lack of defensive ability. Right or wrong, that's why he's doing it. As a hockey coach, I agree with that thought process. It's not like he can say, we have such an offensive team, screw defense...Let's be honest, beyond Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JvR, there's not much out there that's going to put the puck in the net.

Also, not once have I seen Kessel or Lupul held back from working some magic. If anything, Kessel is a better player because of Carlyle's 'system'.

Who's saying screw defence? You still have to play defence. You just don't have to do it all the time at the expense of offence which is what the style he employs is designed to do. It's not one or the other.

I think game 7 eloquently demonstrates why I disagree with Carlyle's system.

I think game 7 points directly at a team that is prone to collapse at any point of the game system or not.

And I get what you're saying about playing both offense and defense. It sounds from what Carlyle is saying that he wants that. He wants a puck possession team that controls the play. Unfortunately when you are lacking the talent, it's not an easy thing to do.

So they're just a mentally fragile team that collapses for no reason? That's a million times worse and they should have blown up the team already.

They aren't lacking in talent.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Grabovski wouldn't listen, he's gone. 

Not true in the slightest, but alright.

 

[Zee]

I heard John Scott called Dion, "Princess Phaneuf".  Missed both Buffalo games by the way, was in Niagara Falls for the weekend with the kids early birthday party.  I'm jonesing for a Leafs game.

 

[L K]

I heard John Scott called Dion, "Princess Phaneuf".  Missed both Buffalo games by the way, was in Niagara Falls for the weekend with the kids early birthday party.  I'm jonesing for a Leafs game.

Just meathead being meathead.  The guy is absolutely clueless.

 

[Andy007]

The "lack of defensive ability" has very little to do with their defensive woes. It's that the system Carlyle is employing is not the right fit for the type of players the Leafs have. Many teams have had success defensively without having any clear defensive talent. Look at the Wild, who were successful with the trap for years - they just didn't have the offensive talent to pair with it. Or the Lightning, who took a suspect roster and questionable goaltending to the Conference Final playing the 1-3-1. Or the Devils in 2012 - not exactly a roster brimming with talent, but, coached well enough to play a solid defensive game every night. There are a number of potential defensive systems this team could be using, and a few of them could very well work out much better than the one Carlyle has stubbornly stuck to.

Hey, I'm not saying his ways are perfect. Like I've said, it's painful to watch. Heck, I watched about 5 minutes of the 3rd Saturday night and I just about threw my remote through the TV.

In the case of everyone calling out Carlyle I take more issue with people thinking that Wilson's system would lead to better results.

For one, it's a complete guess on their parts. 2, until this team starts losing, why would a coach change a system that got them to the playoffs last year and has started them off with a 12-7-1 record?

I just don't see how this issue is this black and white. The team has played horrible, horrible hockey this year; being 12-7-1 is just a testament to their goaltending. So why can't they try to correct the things that are wrong?

Their combined SV% is .940 this year. Under Wilson it was around .900. Under Maurice is was about the same. Quinn's last year in Toronto it was barely .900 (until Aubin had that magical run at the end). Goaltending is literally the reason for Toronto's (marginal) success this year and last. People are speaking out because they can physically see how awful this team is playing. Why settle for a 12-7-1 team which plays crap hockey and wins 99% of the time on game-saving goaltending when they can work with a better system and potentially improve the results?

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

The "lack of defensive ability" has very little to do with their defensive woes. It's that the system Carlyle is employing is not the right fit for the type of players the Leafs have. Many teams have had success defensively without having any clear defensive talent. Look at the Wild, who were successful with the trap for years - they just didn't have the offensive talent to pair with it. Or the Lightning, who took a suspect roster and questionable goaltending to the Conference Final playing the 1-3-1. Or the Devils in 2012 - not exactly a roster brimming with talent, but, coached well enough to play a solid defensive game every night. There are a number of potential defensive systems this team could be using, and a few of them could very well work out much better than the one Carlyle has stubbornly stuck to.

Hey, I'm not saying his ways are perfect. Like I've said, it's painful to watch. Heck, I watched about 5 minutes of the 3rd Saturday night and I just about threw my remote through the TV.

In the case of everyone calling out Carlyle I take more issue with people thinking that Wilson's system would lead to better results.

For one, it's a complete guess on their parts. 2, until this team starts losing, why would a coach change a system that got them to the playoffs last year and has started them off with a 12-7-1 record?

I just don't see how this issue is this black and white. The team has played horrible, horrible hockey this year; being 12-7-1 is just a testament to their goaltending. So why can't they try to correct the things that are wrong?

Their combined SV% is .940 this year. Under Wilson it was around .900. Under Maurice is was about the same. Quinn's last year in Toronto it was barely .900 (until Aubin had that magical run at the end). Goaltending is literally the reason for Toronto's (marginal) success this year and last. People are speaking out because they can physically see how awful this team is playing. Why settle for a 12-7-1 team which plays crap hockey and wins 99% of the time on game saving goaltending when they can work with a better system and improve the results?

Not that I think they're playing well necessarily, but the SV% under Wilson and Maurice had a lot to do with:

a) sub-par goalies
b) sub-par defence (a symptom of their coaching?)
c) a less successful PK


I mean credit where it's due. The Goalie SV% is helped by a very good PK. The Goalies are a lot better than under Wilson and Maurice, that is undeniable.

 

[bustaheims]

I mean credit where it's due. The Goalie SV% is helped by a very good PK.

That's true, but I'd say the PK numbers are equally enhanced by the quality of goaltending the team is receiving. It's very much a reciprocal relationship.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Grabovski wouldn't listen, he's gone. 

Not true in the slightest, but alright.

The Leafs management team deserves some sort of award for getting a good percentage of Leafs fans to turn on Grabovski the way they have.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Put it this way - what do you think the Leafs record would be, with the team playing exactly as it has been, if their #1 goalie was either Raycroft, Toskala or Gustavsson?

 

[Bender]

Put it this way - what do you think the Leafs record would be, with the team playing exactly as it has been, if their #1 goalie was either Raycroft, Toskala or Gustavsson?

I'll agree here. The personnel is far better now than it was back in Wilson's time. If it weren't for Reimer's concussion I think we would've been able to make the playoffs the year before.

I have a lot of respect for Wilson when he said the team would be competitive once he left the organization.