Steve Stamkos?

[GhostofPotvin29]

I feel like other teams have been able to make it work with elite talent, Leafs should be able to as well.

While that's true, for the most part, those teams have done so either before they signed that elite talent to big money deals, or when they already had their other areas of concern filled with cost effective talent that were more than simply "good enough" to fill those roles. They also had the organizational depth that, when those secondary and depth pieces became too expensive, they had cheap, young options that were able to step in and fill those roles. I'm not convinced the Leafs are able to do any of that.

My concern is that, with Stamkos, the Leafs will become a very top heavy team before they're able to make the jump to contender.

Isn't that what the Leafs are doing now?  Filling their organization with young depth pieces?  I think a big reason why the better teams can fill out their roster with 'cheap, young options' is because they have those elite talents in the high profile slots allowing those players to slot in more effectively.  Not to continually go back to Chicago, but when they were naming off some of those depth players Chicago has signed recently - would any of them be lauded on any other team?  I think it just works in Chicago because they have Kane/Toews and then Hossa, Panarin so these players don't have to be anything other than depth players. 

I think the Leafs are building their organization in such a way and I think it's evident in how many picks they've been trying to acquire.  In the years to come they will hopefully have a ton of younger players who can fill certain roles as needed.

 

[Kin]

Hossa in Chicago, but that was one of those cap circumventing deals that aren't options now. But, yeah, for the most part, Cup teams and Cup contenders have brought in depth pieces via UFA, not big pieces. Partly because really high quality pieces haven't been available by UFA, and partly because they had those pieces in place internally before they became contenders. The perennial contenders definitely seem to have grasped the concept that spending UFA prices to being in major pieces is not a successful strategy.

Hossa was signed in the summer of '09 when they already had Toews, Kane, Keith and Seabrook established as pretty good players and had Sharp, Ladd, Byfuglien and so on up and contributing. He was very much a final piece of the puzzle.

 

[Frank E]

Maybe it's just my memory but I can't off-hand think of any team that signed a particularly big free agent that was instrumental in their cup run and who was signed before they already had the major pieces of their cup winning team in place. Chara maybe.

Hossa in Chicago, but that was one of those cap circumventing deals that aren't options now. But, yeah, for the most part, Cup teams and Cup contenders have brought in depth pieces via UFA, not big pieces. Partly because really high quality pieces haven't been available by UFA, and partly because they had those pieces in place internally before they became contenders. The perennial contenders definitely seem to have grasped the concept that spending UFA prices to being in major pieces is not a successful strategy.

Campbell in Florida?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Maybe it's just my memory but I can't off-hand think of any team that signed a particularly big free agent that was instrumental in their cup run and who was signed before they already had the major pieces of their cup winning team in place. Chara maybe.

Hossa in Chicago, but that was one of those cap circumventing deals that aren't options now. But, yeah, for the most part, Cup teams and Cup contenders have brought in depth pieces via UFA, not big pieces. Partly because really high quality pieces haven't been available by UFA, and partly because they had those pieces in place internally before they became contenders. The perennial contenders definitely seem to have grasped the concept that spending UFA prices to being in major pieces is not a successful strategy.

But you hit the nail on the head - the reason teams don't sign elite UFA's is because they almost never hit UFA status while still in their prime.  It's hard to say anything definitively on it because there's almost no parallels since the cap came about.  Did those perennial contenders grasp that concept or did they have no other choice?

 

[bustaheims]

Campbell in Florida?

When did Florida go on a Cup run?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Campbell in Florida?

When did Florida go on a Cup run?

All the examples will probably be from before the cap, or at least most of them.  Maybe Scott Niedermayer in Anaheim.  Kovalchuk if you want to get technical since he did become an UFA, just ended up signing back with NJ who had traded for him earlier in the season.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not, but I'm curious what the cut off is for the anti Stamkos crowd. If he was 24 instead of 26 would he then be 'young enough'? Is it also imperative that JvR and Kadri be traded because they don't fit the age range?

As far as the team being too good with Stamkos even Pittsburgh finished last the season after adding Crosby and his 100+ point season. Are you happy the team missed McDavid? Or would the age difference have made the potential mediocrity OK?

Again I'm not in either camp (my biggest concern is if he'll be worth the cap hit), I'm just wondering about the thought process.

 

[Frank E]

Campbell in Florida?

When did Florida go on a Cup run?

Well, they're 5th in the league right now.  I think they'd have a shot over the next couple of seasons anyway, no?

 

[dappleganger]

I swear to god this thread is like the twilight zone.

A bunch of really intelligent people with more time than sense talking themselves into not signing one of the top players in the NHL.

It's fun!

If it was a 26 year old Doughty, I'd say yes. Scoring Center/Winger at this stage of the build? Maaaaybe.

I wish it was Doughty that was going to be a FA. I honestly believe he's the best player in the league in terms of helping his team win a championship.

 

[Kin]

As far as the team being too good with Stamkos even Pittsburgh finished last the season after adding Crosby and his 100+ point season.

But look at the roster of that 05-06 Pittsburgh team. Crosby is literally the only good young player on the roster. There's a 25 year old Ryan Malone, a 22 year old Colby Armstrong and Ryan Whitney and Brooks Orpik. That's it.

Next year's Leaf team is almost certainly going to have Rielly, Marner and Nylander. Maybe Kapanen. Maybe one of Laine, Matthews or Puljujarvi. Even before you get to maybe still having JVR or Kadri and Gardiner there's going to be a lot of young talent on the roster.

 

[Kin]

Campbell in Florida?

When did Florida go on a Cup run?

When did Campbell sign in Florida as a UFA?

 

[bustaheims]

Well, they're 5th in the league right now.  I think they'd have a shot over the next couple of seasons anyway, no?

Well, if they go on one this season, they'd sort of qualify. They didn't sign Campbell - they traded for him - and he's a UFA at the end of the season.

 

[Frank E]

Campbell in Florida?

When did Florida go on a Cup run?

When did Campbell sign in Florida as a UFA?

I'm aware they traded for him. I thought we were debating whether or acquiring elite talent (at no talent cost) was a good idea at this point of the rebuild.

 

[Kin]

I'm aware they traded for him. I thought we were debating whether or acquiring elite talent (at no talent cost) was a good idea at this point of the rebuild.

So you brought up an example of a team acquiring non-elite talent for a talent cost?

 

[bustaheims]

I'm aware they traded for him. I thought we were debating whether or acquiring elite talent (at no talent cost) was a good idea at this point of the rebuild.

So you brought up an example of a team acquiring non-elite talent for a talent cost?

Well, that's debatable. It was a straight up trade for a player they would otherwise likely bought out or demoted to the AHL. The "talent" it cost them was a player that was unlikely to be on their roster.

 

[Kin]

Well, that's debatable. It was a straight up trade for a player they would otherwise likely bought out or demoted to the AHL. The "talent" it cost them was a player that was unlikely to be on their roster.

I don't disagree with the general point you're making but I don't know if I buy the rationale. Joe Colborne was a legit NHL talent(admittedly not one to write home about) regardless of whether or not the Leafs planned to demote him.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

An inherently flawed theoretical question, but nonetheless:  Pretend Stamkos had played his career up to this point with the Leafs.  There's no baggage or ill will between him and the coach/management.  Pretend there's no option to trade him leading into free agency.  He's coming up for UFA as he is in July.  In that circumstance, for anybody who opposes the signing of Stamkos as it stands right now, would you also still take the position that the team should let him walk if he were a Leaf right now?

 

[bustaheims]

An inherently flawed theoretical question, but nonetheless:  Pretend Stamkos had played his career up to this point with the Leafs.  There's no baggage or ill will between him and the coach/management.  Pretend there's no option to trade him leading into free agency.  He's coming up for UFA as he is in July.  In that circumstance, for anybody who opposes the signing of Stamkos as it stands right now, would you also still take the position that the team should let him walk if he were a Leaf right now?

Well, the flawed premise is a problem, but there's also a significant difference between retaining an asset and adding one. Letting him walk for nothing represents a loss. Not adding him represents the status quo. From an asset management POV, you'd want to re-sign him. From a team building perspective? That's a more complicated question.

 

[hockeyfan1]

I trust Lamoriello and Shanahan and the rest of the Leafs management team on their decision-making.

The real question isn't even if the Leafs should sign Stamkos but rather, will the young prospects who will most certainly be with the big club come next season, be able to handle the 'pressure' of the big leagues.  One name in point: Mitchell Marner.  Will he turn out as another Kadri type or will he improve surely but steadily, not slowly with issues?  Will he eventually morph into one of the the team's elite centres?  Will Nylander be affected in any way especially should he be hit again (considering he already has been previously concussed)?  Yes, many questions.  Answers?  Wait and see.

I believe the Leafs management will have a more complete  picture of the team's situation after the Draft.  In this way, they will be able to assess everything and get a clearer picture of where the rebuild is going and whether signing Stamkos will truly fit into their plans.

 

[Kin]

An inherently flawed theoretical question, but nonetheless:  Pretend Stamkos had played his career up to this point with the Leafs.  There's no baggage or ill will between him and the coach/management.  Pretend there's no option to trade him leading into free agency.  He's coming up for UFA as he is in July.  In that circumstance, for anybody who opposes the signing of Stamkos as it stands right now, would you also still take the position that the team should let him walk if he were a Leaf right now?

So in this situation the Maple Leafs have had a top flight, elite #1 center the last 7 years but that hasn't changed the situation they're in at all? Or affected personnel decisions along the way?

...I guess not?