The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Kin]

Yeah, I think cw hits on the right way to view Wilson's first few years here. Saying people are trying to "pin" those years on Wilson seems overly simplistic as I think everyone would admit that there were failures from the players as well as Burke in terms of putting the team together. Criticizing Wilson for his role doesn't mean you're absolving the other two groups for their failings.

 

[Corn Flake]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

- In the last 12 games the special teams have come together and have overall been excellent.

- despite not having Reimer he's actually getting decent performances out of his dueling backups.  Not every night but he's made some tough calls on who to start and its worked out more often than not. 

- Kessel playing like a (or emerged as a?) superstar, leading the league in goals and points, and is 10x the overall player he was when he first arrived.  Wilson managed him well, benching him at times when he deserved it, yet didn't lose him in the process.

- Lupul playing out of his mind with Kessel on the top line.  As Lupul noted, Carlyle said he didn't think he had the talent to play LW.  It seems Wilson thinks he does.

- Not really a player on this team you can say is a whipping boy anymore.. or to put it another way, struggling to the point they are hurting the team. Even Komisarek - everyone's previous favorite whipping boy - was playing well, with restored confidence until he got hurt.

- Schenn had a disaster of a start but is now looking like the late season version we saw last year. 

- Kept the Franson situation from becoming an issue.. similar to how he dealt with Ian White a few years ago and things look pretty good right now that the chance for Franson to play is here.

- Showing all kinds of faith in Gardiner who is playing some amazing hockey for a 21-year old rookie d-man.  A number of other young players on the team are getting better with each game.

- Team is leading the division, 2nd in the conference and 4th overall in the league after 25 games.  Youngest team in the league too.  Team is 3rd overall in points since the All Star break last year.

- on top of all this, his 4th season after 3 losing ones, still has his players listening, responding and improving.

Not really the types of things a coach who is headed towards the firing squad.  Extension? Probably not yet, but likely won't be long now if he keeps adding items to the above list.

 

[Kin]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

But I think the key word there is recent. After the Nashville game I'd say that at least half of the things on your list would either be a matter of serious dispute or be outright wrong.

A good run of late has the team where they want to be but just like the negativity after the Nashville game was overblown your post has the air of counting unhatched chickens.

 

[ZBBM]

Really.  Any evaluation of Wilson should look at his whole tenure, and not be affected by mood swings of us fans.  Delightful though that mood currently is.

 

[Redleaf]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

But I think the key word there is recent. After the Nashville game I'd say that at least half of the things on your list would either be a matter of serious dispute or be outright wrong.

A good run of late has the team where they want to be but just like the negativity after the Nashville game was overblown your post has the air of counting unhatched chickens.

You're really going to town with the chicken analogies today.
KFC for lunch? Or the Egg & I ?

 

[cw]

cw, I don't have the same impression of a real 'defence' first Leaf team last year, I think there may have been an over reaction/misguided decision to try it when they had no goaltending and lost Phaneuf and Army but when they were back, with a crappy offensive roster in terms of depth and a decent goaltender I thought it was more balanced than that, well to a degree at least.

In October last year, the Leafs GAA was 2.30 and their save% was .913. I think the GAA at that time was around 4th - certainly top 10 (almost unheard of for a Leafs club). In his first 12 games, Gus had some really good games, including four games where he allow only 2 goals ... and lost. The problem was in the early part of that2010-11 season that the Leafs were barely scoring 2 goals per game - if that.

Defence first was stressed by Wilson (& Burke) from the previous summer and before. Now, he's saying (paraphrased) "we may allow a few more goals but we're going to use our speed to make up for it". He was not saying that in July-Oct 2010. And he played his team that way in their early going of that season. Check, check and check some more. It stifled them offensively.

We heard a lot about top6/bottom6 back then. We also heard a lot about truculence, testosterone, etc. Where is that now? It's gone. They built a 3rd line that can score this season - not a pure checking line. The enforcers are in the press box. They shifted to more puck movement from their D - away from attempting stifling defence.

The emergence of Grabbo's line as last season went on was in significant part due to letting them go offensively and use their skills. They had to let them go because the club wasn't scoring enough.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

There is no doubt Wilson owns at least a shtickle of the "blame" for the past 3 seasons.  Not sure by what metric we are measuring Wilson's success.  To me, failing to make the play-offs is the first metric.  BUT, I sincerely believe the talent was not there to make the play-offs the past three seasons.

 

[Corn Flake]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

But I think the key word there is recent. After the Nashville game I'd say that at least half of the things on your list would either be a matter of serious dispute or be outright wrong.

A good run of late has the team where they want to be but just like the negativity after the Nashville game was overblown your post has the air of counting unhatched chickens.

Yes, recent.

Right after the Nashville game?  Sure. You could pick them all apart based on one bad game. There are 4-5 REALLY bad games this year you could do that for. 

I'm looking at it a little wider than one bad game.  The good run has been from Feb of last year.  Yes there have been some brutal games but for the most part the team bounces back - also something that is a notable change.

Not sure what on my list is unhatched as mostly the theme of what I said was that things are going well.  I'm not proclaiming things like Kessel being a bona fide superstar... I'm saying he is playing *like* one right now.  Hopefully it continues.  Considering where PK was when he started here, he has come a long long way and Wilson deserves credit for working with this guy and not losing him along the way.

Etc. etc.

 

[Stebro]

So it finally seems as if it's possible to have pretty good special teams numbers' even with this team....and these goalies...

 

[Zee]

A lack of talent doesn't necessarily mean a team should be bottom feeders as the Leafs have been for the past few seasons. Case in point this year so far : Ottawa. Pretty much every hockey prediction had them at the bottom of the standings yet currently they're playing above their heads and have 24 points in 23 games. I believe their new coach has had a huge hand in their success so far.

 

[Kin]

Right after the Nashville game?  Sure. You could pick them all apart based on one bad game. There are 4-5 REALLY bad games this year you could do that for.

You're kind of missing my point there about the timing. I'm not saying that, after the Nashville game, people would have been complaining about the Nashville game. I'm saying that, after the Nashville game things here were dark because the Leafs were coming off a stretch of six games where they went 1-4-1 and were outscored 24-8. At the time people were lamenting the terrible tragedy that was the goaltending situation and the special teams and Schenn and etc, etc, etc.

These things ebb and flow. Taking a snapshot right now is as distorted as a snapshot then. 

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Right after the Nashville game?  Sure. You could pick them all apart based on one bad game. There are 4-5 REALLY bad games this year you could do that for.

You're kind of missing my point there about the timing. I'm not saying that, after the Nashville game, people would have been complaining about the Nashville game. I'm saying that, after the Nashville game things here were dark because the Leafs were coming off a stretch of six games where they went 1-4-1 and were outscored 24-8. At the time people were lamenting the terrible tragedy that was the goaltending situation and the special teams and Schenn and etc, etc, etc.

These things ebb and flow. Taking a snapshot right now is as distorted as a snapshot then. 

You can't also use the "sky is falling" attitudes to make a point. Some were not too overly worried about that 6 game spread and knew that this team would bounce back. I think the overall premise of CF's point stands, that the Leafs since the All Star break last season are a team to be reckoned with.

I think their improvement has a lot to do with coaching and development. Wilson has a lot to do with that improvement IMO.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

- In the last 12 games the special teams have come together and have overall been excellent.

In the past 12 games, the Leafs beat the Blue Jackets, but the Blue Jackets were playing so bad, they made the Islanders look like a professional hockey team.  They lost 7-0 to the Bruins, 5-1 to the Panthers, were lucky to beat the Blues, lost 5-2 to the turds, 3-2 to the Coyotes and 4-1 to the Preds.  Instead of extending the losing streak as in past seasons, the Leafs turned it around in their last 5 games, and if not for a bad schedule should have been 5-0 in their past 5.

It is not just the PP or the PK, but overall team play that has impressed me.  The Monster is making the big save when required - shootout win over the Stars, using team speed to defeat the defensive schemes of other teams and create scoring chances, there is always at least 1 player going to the net even strength or on the PP, the defence is very sound and not taking bone headed penalties.

But this has been only 5 games.  There are still 58 to go. 

 

[Kin]

You can't also use the "sky is falling" attitudes to make a point.

Sure I can, especially if that point is that we tend to over-react to everything here good or bad and that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

You can't also use the "sky is falling" attitudes to make a point.

Sure I can, especially if that point is that we tend to over-react to everything here good or bad and that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

I don't think CF's argument is an over reacting kind of point though. It's not a "plan the parade" post, it is simply giving credit to the overall body of work. I don't think you have to use extreme points of view to get to that truth with it.

I do agree that the truth lies somewhere in between the extreme comments that are shared, but I didn't see CF's comment as extreme at all, so I wouldn't use an extreme opposite view to discredit it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Kin]

I do agree that the truth lies somewhere in between the extreme comments that are shared, but I didn't see CF's comment as extreme at all, so I wouldn't use an extreme opposite view to discredit it. That's all I'm saying.

I didn't see it as extreme, I just saw it as taking a snapshot at a time where things were going very well which will distort things as much as when they aren't. A lot of the things, as I said, on his list wouldn't have been true just five short games ago.

Wilson is going to be measured this season, I think, on actual tangible accomplishments. Those are going to come at year's end.

 

[Corn Flake]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

- In the last 12 games the special teams have come together and have overall been excellent.

In the past 12 games, the Leafs beat the Blue Jackets, but the Blue Jackets were playing so bad, they made the Islanders look like a professional hockey team.  They lost 7-0 to the Bruins, 5-1 to the Panthers, were lucky to beat the Blues, lost 5-2 to the turds, 3-2 to the Coyotes and 4-1 to the Preds.  Instead of extending the losing streak as in past seasons, the Leafs turned it around in their last 5 games, and if not for a bad schedule should have been 5-0 in their past 5.

It is not just the PP or the PK, but overall team play that has impressed me.  The Monster is making the big save when required - shootout win over the Stars, using team speed to defeat the defensive schemes of other teams and create scoring chances, there is always at least 1 player going to the net even strength or on the PP, the defence is very sound and not taking bone headed penalties.

But this has been only 5 games.  There are still 58 to go.

And the Leafs beat the Bolts by pulling apart their 1-3-1 system. They did that with strategy, discipline and speed as well.  Yeah not every team is a contender, but how many times in the last few years have the Leafs been the team to let a struggling team off the mat and get beat up by them?

All this stuff is just positive signs things are starting to not just head in the right direction, but show this team could very well be for real. The signs are very good that this team is working well together, responding to the coach and the systems which looked rough at the start are beginning to settle in. Its certainly not all black and white stuff... its things observed and demonstrated.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Recent Wilson (and coaching staff/team) accomplishments:

- In the last 12 games the special teams have come together and have overall been excellent.

In the past 12 games, the Leafs beat the Blue Jackets, but the Blue Jackets were playing so bad, they made the Islanders look like a professional hockey team.  They lost 7-0 to the Bruins, 5-1 to the Panthers, were lucky to beat the Blues, lost 5-2 to the turds, 3-2 to the Coyotes and 4-1 to the Preds.  Instead of extending the losing streak as in past seasons, the Leafs turned it around in their last 5 games, and if not for a bad schedule should have been 5-0 in their past 5.

It is not just the PP or the PK, but overall team play that has impressed me.  The Monster is making the big save when required - shootout win over the Stars, using team speed to defeat the defensive schemes of other teams and create scoring chances, there is always at least 1 player going to the net even strength or on the PP, the defence is very sound and not taking bone headed penalties.

But this has been only 5 games.  There are still 58 to go.

And the Leafs beat the Bolts by pulling apart their 1-3-1 system. They did that with strategy, discipline and speed as well.  Yeah not every team is a contender, but how many times in the last few years have the Leafs been the team to let a struggling team off the mat and get beat up by them?

All this stuff is just positive signs things are starting to not just head in the right direction, but show this team could very well be for real. The signs are very good that this team is working well together, responding to the coach and the systems which looked rough at the start are beginning to settle in. Its certainly not all black and white stuff... its things observed and demonstrated.

I totally agree with you.  Tomorrow night's game will be interesting and will be a measuring rod as to how good the Leafs are.  Even though the Bruins are playing great hockey, the Leafs are playing just as good and I am having a difficult time expecting the Leafs to lose a game.  I haven't had that thought since the early 2000s.

 

[Tigger]

Defence first was stressed by Wilson (& Burke) from the previous summer and before. Now, he's saying (paraphrased) "we may allow a few more goals but we're going to use our speed to make up for it". He was not saying that in July-Oct 2010. And he played his team that way in their early going of that season. Check, check and check some more. It stifled them offensively.

We heard a lot about top6/bottom6 back then. We also heard a lot about truculence, testosterone, etc. Where is that now? It's gone. They built a 3rd line that can score this season - not a pure checking line. The enforcers are in the press box. They shifted to more puck movement from their D - away from attempting stifling defence.

The emergence of Grabbo's line as last season went on was in significant part due to letting them go offensively and use their skills. They had to let them go because the club wasn't scoring enough.

I guess this is where my memory is what I'm questioning a bit, when the Leafs started playing well before the all star break I didn't think I was seeing as much 'd-first/stifling' play, rather decent to good goaltending, better team d and increased scoring.

When Orr went down some commented that he wasn't missed at all, have to wonder if there was a bit of a schism there as Burke was always the 'truculence' trumpeter where Wilson said outright he didn't like staged fighting at all, which is pretty much all Orr brought to the team... perhaps Wilsons view prevailed to a degree there? Hard to say.

We did hear a lot about top six/bottom six and we questioned the potential merits given Toronto's pop gun offence early on, I'm positive I read suggestions about a 3rd scoring line or hybrid line but I don't think they had the horses at the time.

Anyways I'm rambling a bit there and maybe I'm reading you wrong but I certainly thought the team's transition to more of a puck moving scoring club started midway last year, fwiw.

 

[Bender]

You can't also use the "sky is falling" attitudes to make a point.

Sure I can, especially if that point is that we tend to over-react to everything here good or bad and that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Agreed entirely!