The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[GhostofPotvin29]

With that cleared up, I honestly don't see how anybody can even be upset with it really. If Wilson misses the playoffs again he'll probably still be fired, and MLSE can easily afford that. And he's not, then go ahead and freak out. But all this does is give the dressing room a little stability.

That's trying to have your cake and eat it too, though. The reality is that it doesn't really give the dressing room any stability for the very reasons you mention. Players(or their agents anyway) can look at this deal exactly the same way you can. I really do think it all boils down to whether or not you feel the job Wilson's done warrants that extra security. I don't think there's a right or a wrong there but I absolutely could see either side.

But then players could look at any coach's contract, of any length, in a similar vein in Toronto.  So then it probably doesn't have any impact regardless.

 

[Kin]

But then players could look at any coach's contract, of any length, in a similar vein in Toronto.  So then it probably doesn't have any impact regardless.

But that's kind of my point. I think the idea here is that a coach with job security sends the message to players that they'd better buy what the coach is selling or else they'll be on their way out but, as people are saying, this doesn't really/i] give Wilson anymore job security so that probably won't affect the situation much, if at all.

 

[ZBBM]

IMO all this extra discussion -- does it add stability, will the players play harder for him now, how much talent he has to work with -- misses the point.  In my world, contractors get paid to produce, or to do the job well.  You don't give somebody a new contract until they have produced what you wanted them to produce, or did the job you asked them to do, or done something else extraordinary to merit it.  Wilson hasn't done anything other than have the team on the winning side of the ledger halfway through the season -- for the first time.  He's gotten rewarded for mediocrity, plain and simple.

I find it funny to think back to all those years where we heard about "country club atmosphere" and "entitlement" and all of that.  This comes closer to that than anything in the past.

I would love it if somebody asked Burke, for the record, exactly what Wilson did to earn an extension.  I'd love to hear the answer.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I find it funny to think back to all those years where we heard about "country club atmosphere" and "entitlement" and all of that.  This comes closer to that than anything in the past.

But then that would be taking it out of context.  I think those terms were thrown around, rightly or wrongly, about players here on teams that were, for the most part, stronger than what we have seen the past few years.

I never really did the whole prediction thing, but I think most people here the past few seasons didn't predict the playoffs for the Leafs, right?  Neither did the talking heads on TV?  I really don't think there are many, if any, coaches out there who would have done significantly better with the roster we have.  Good coaches can get poor results from a roster.  Most great coaches have great rosters to begin with.

I don't think an extension is saying 'mission accomplished' to Wilson.  It's telling him that Burke either thinks he's done well enough with what he gave him, and/or that he thinks the team will keep improving with him.

 

[bustaheims]

IMO all this extra discussion -- does it add stability, will the players play harder for him now, how much talent he has to work with -- misses the point.  In my world, contractors get paid to produce, or to do the job well.  You don't give somebody a new contract until they have produced what you wanted them to produce, or did the job you asked them to do, or done something else extraordinary to merit it.  Wilson hasn't done anything other than have the team on the winning side of the ledger halfway through the season -- for the first time.  He's gotten rewarded for mediocrity, plain and simple.

The bolded line stands out to me, because, well, just because Wilson hasn't achieved what we would have liked him to achieve doesn't mean he hasn't done the job that Burke and the rest of the management group have asked of him - especially in light of the talent they gave him to work with. Honestly, no team is going to win with the gaping hole the Leafs have had in net for most of Wilson's tenure, even with Scotty Bowman or Toe Blake behind the bench.

 

[ZBBM]

I find it funny to think back to all those years where we heard about "country club atmosphere" and "entitlement" and all of that.  This comes closer to that than anything in the past.

But then that would be taking it out of context.  I think those terms were thrown around, rightly or wrongly, about players here on teams that were, for the most part, stronger than what we have seen the past few years.

I never really did the whole prediction thing, but I think most people here the past few seasons didn't predict the playoffs for the Leafs, right?  Neither did the talking heads on TV?  I really don't think there are many, if any, coaches out there who would have done significantly better with the roster we have.  Good coaches can get poor results from a roster.  Most great coaches have great rosters to begin with.

I don't think an extension is saying 'mission accomplished' to Wilson.  It's telling him that Burke either thinks he's done well enough with what he gave him, and/or that he thinks the team will keep improving with him.

Is there any compelling reason to give him an extension now as opposed to the end of the season?  That's the fundamental question.

 

[ZBBM]

IMO all this extra discussion -- does it add stability, will the players play harder for him now, how much talent he has to work with -- misses the point.  In my world, contractors get paid to produce, or to do the job well.  You don't give somebody a new contract until they have produced what you wanted them to produce, or did the job you asked them to do, or done something else extraordinary to merit it.  Wilson hasn't done anything other than have the team on the winning side of the ledger halfway through the season -- for the first time.  He's gotten rewarded for mediocrity, plain and simple.

The bolded line stands out to me, because, well, just because Wilson hasn't achieved what we would have liked him to achieve doesn't mean he hasn't done the job that Burke and the rest of the management group have asked of him - especially in light of the talent they gave him to work with. Honestly, no team is going to win with the gaping hole the Leafs have had in net for most of Wilson's tenure, even with Scotty Bowman or Toe Blake behind the bench.

Burke has asked him to produce an 18-13 record halfway through his 4th season?  That's the benchmark?  If it is, it's pretty pathetic.

EDIT: BTW, let me add that despite my personal feelings for Wilson I totally acknowledge that he's done a better job this year.  I just think it makes no sense, looked at objectively, to give him an extension at this point in time.

 

[bustaheims]

Is there any compelling reason to give him an extension now as opposed to the end of the season?  That's the fundamental question.

Well, for one, it removes the doubt from his mind, allowing him to keep his focus entirely on improving the areas of need. It also minimizes it as in issue with the media - it won't come up in media scrums during games late in the season now, it won't come up in Burke's media appearances after the next few days and so on. Even if it's just a symbolic thing, it shows the players that the coach is not teetering on the edge of dismissal, even if his job is no more safe than that of any other coach in the league - that might not mean much in terms of impact, but, it will have some, subconsciously.

Especially with a 1 year extension . . . now is the time to do it. If you wait until the summer, then you're likely looking at a multi-year deal, and, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[bustaheims]

Burke has asked him to produce an 18-13 record halfway through his 4th season?  That's the benchmark?  If it is, it's pretty pathetic.

EDIT: BTW, let me add that despite my personal feelings for Wilson I totally acknowledge that he's done a better job this year.  I just think it makes no sense, looked at objectively, to give him an extension at this point in time.

I mean in the overall scope of things. Wilson has helped develop some younger players. For instance, Kessel has developed into a much more complete player under Wilson's tutelage, Phaneuf has begun to look like he's returning to the form he showed early in his career. Guys like Gunnarsson, Grabovski, and so on have all grown under Wilson. It's not all about wins and losses. Sure, for the first 2 and a half seasons, the record didn't look great, but, for most of that time, wins were very much a secondary goal.

No one is saying he's been perfect - obviously, there's more work to be done - but, that doesn't mean he hasn't been doing his job, as defined by his superiors.

 

[ZBBM]

Burke has asked him to produce an 18-13 record halfway through his 4th season?  That's the benchmark?  If it is, it's pretty pathetic.

EDIT: BTW, let me add that despite my personal feelings for Wilson I totally acknowledge that he's done a better job this year.  I just think it makes no sense, looked at objectively, to give him an extension at this point in time.

I mean in the overall scope of things. Wilson has helped develop some younger players. For instance, Kessel has developed into a much more complete player under Wilson's tutelage, Phaneuf has begun to look like he's returning to the form he showed early in his career. Guys like Gunnarsson, Grabovski, and so on have all grown under Wilson. It's not all about wins and losses. Sure, for the first 2 and a half seasons, the record didn't look great, but, for most of that time, wins were very much a secondary goal.

I understand, but still, in the NHL you are measured on results from season to season, not halfway through the season.  There was nothing magical going on 3 weeks ago or whenever he actually got the extension.  If we asked Burke what exactly did Wilson do to merit an extension, do you honestly think his answer would be "Well, I think Ron has done an outstanding job of player development and now, at this very point in the season, after two years of not really worrying about wins, we can now really start looking at W-L records as a factor in his performance as a coach."  Because he would have to answer in that vein, would he not -- if the benchmark is player development.

 

[bustaheims]

I understand, but still, in the NHL you are measured on results from season to season, not halfway through the season.  There was nothing magical going on 3 weeks ago or whenever he actually got the extension.  If we asked Burke what exactly did Wilson do to merit an extension, do you honestly think his answer would be "Well, I think Ron has done an outstanding job of player development and now, at this very point in the season, after two years of not really worrying about wins, we can now really start looking at W-L records as a factor in his performance as a coach."  Because he would have to answer in that vein, would he not -- if the benchmark is player development.

Is that not pretty much what he said yesterday after the extension became public knowledge? Just, you know, in a more lawyerly and well crafted manner?

 

[ZBBM]

Is there any compelling reason to give him an extension now as opposed to the end of the season?  That's the fundamental question.

Well, for one, it removes the doubt from his mind, allowing him to keep his focus entirely on improving the areas of need. It also minimizes it as in issue with the media - it won't come up in media scrums during games late in the season now, it won't come up in Burke's media appearances after the next few days and so on. Even if it's just a symbolic thing, it shows the players that the coach is not teetering on the edge of dismissal, even if his job is no more safe than that of any other coach in the league - that might not mean much in terms of impact, but, it will have some, subconsciously.

Especially with a 1 year extension . . . now is the time to do it. If you wait until the summer, then you're likely looking at a multi-year deal, and, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

With all due respect, none of those answers are compelling reasons.  First, if not having an extension before finishing a contract is enough to distract a coach from coaching, you don't want him.  Second, as soon as the Leafs falter, do you not believe that the media won't be talking about it incessantly, second-guessing him?  If BB wanted to shut up media speculation, all he had to do was to say he had no intention of changing coaches during the season and that any contractual matters would be worked out at the end of the season.

Third, the symbolic impact is, as you more or less admit, weak.  I'd call it negligible.

Finally, is it a 1-year extension?  I hadn't heard.  If it is, does BB intend to keep on extending him in 1-year increments?

 

[ZBBM]

I understand, but still, in the NHL you are measured on results from season to season, not halfway through the season.  There was nothing magical going on 3 weeks ago or whenever he actually got the extension.  If we asked Burke what exactly did Wilson do to merit an extension, do you honestly think his answer would be "Well, I think Ron has done an outstanding job of player development and now, at this very point in the season, after two years of not really worrying about wins, we can now really start looking at W-L records as a factor in his performance as a coach."  Because he would have to answer in that vein, would he not -- if the benchmark is player development.

Is that not pretty much what he said yesterday after the extension became public knowledge? Just, you know, in a more lawyerly and well crafted manner?

I haven't seen any quotes from him yet.  And pardon me, my hypothetical response is not well crafted?   

Let me tell you, I am just killing time here until midnight strikes and I can start my third minimalist GDT in a row -- whose immense power, may I remind you, has produced ACTUAL MEASURABLE RESULTS in wins and losses and, in a delicious irony, will likely propel Wilson into the playoffs and make him and Burke both look like geniuses.  You can thank me in April.

 

[Tigger]

Like Nik said, the one year deal puts the target on Burke, reminds me of Gretzky at the Olympics in a way... a Red Ryder BB gun, indeed. If Wilson doesn't make the playoffs then the team failed and he gets a paid vacation, not a big deal really, seems more like setting the tone short term.

Burke'll be on the hotseat in that case but he doesn't seem to mind that.

Fwiw, that audio link cw posted features Burke answering fairly directly.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If BB wanted to shut up media speculation, all he had to do was to say he had no intention of changing coaches during the season and that any contractual matters would be worked out at the end of the season.

Riiiight.  That would shut up Toronto media speculation.  ???  :-\

 

[ZBBM]

Gentlemen, I have done my duty in the GDT thread, even though it undermines my own position vis-a-vis Wilson.  Greater love than no man for the Leafs than I. 

So with that, tomorrow being a school day, I must leave our differences unresolved and bid you all a good night.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Re: the Wilson extension, some comments from Leafs, etc.....

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/12/26/brophy_on_wilson/?site=www

So why give Wilson an extension now when a playoff spot is not guaranteed? Why re-sign him now after not doing so last summer? Why give him a new deal when he hasn't taken the team to the playoffs in his first three years?

All legitimate questions and concerns.

Taken one at a time the answers to those questions could be: 1. Because he has the team in the thick of things despite the injuries; 2. Based on his team's excellent play since the all-star break last year (they are 37-23-8) it made sense to see if the club would continue its solid play into this year and not fall off; 3. Because this is the first group of players the coach has been provided by management that has a legitimate chance of making it into the post-season and the results thus far have been positive.

Reimer said it's about time a successful coach was rewarded.

"It's a nice change from the trend we've seen this season," Reimer said. "It's a huge positive in here. Ron is a great coach and you can see it by how many wins he has. We have pride in our room to do well, but we get guidance and coaching from him ? congrats to him and I don't know if there's a much better Christmas gift."

Wilson, by the way, has a career coaching record of 637-546-189.

Added winger Clarke MacArthur: "We have one of the youngest teams and for how well we are doing, he's done a great job. We had a good push at the end last year. I think Toronto has pushed before and then kind of started (fallen back) next season where we've taken a step forward. You should get rewarded for that so good for him."

...if you buy into the theory this year's team is the best and only one Wilson has had in Toronto with realistic playoff potential, then the signing makes perfect sense. Based on the way the Leafs played prior to the break, it's hard to imagine things taking a sudden nosedive.

Wilson wouldn't comment on the terms of the deal, but did say, "I've seen lots of coaches get fired this year with lots of term left (on their contracts), so the pressure doesn't change. It's still the same. I could get fired next week for all I know. (If that happens) I have a little bit of combat pay coming, in other words. That's the way I look at it."

"We believe that we are marching forward and we keep on improving," Wilson said. "I think the results are showing that in the standings. What we want to be is a consistent team with some continuity moving forward; not only with our players, but with everybody else in the organization.

"I'm satisfied, but I think we could have been better.

It's a process that may not be quick enough for some, but with the way the league is and the way the game is played now we think that we're building it the right way. We'll have a team that will be competitive for a long time."

 

[hockeyfan1]

More opinions and tidbits....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Leafs-Coach-Ron-Wilson-8217-s-extended-stay-of-;_ylt=AkMma1dJ1rAI9na_ZSsYvap7vLYF?urn=nhl-wp20736

In a League where change is inevitable and frequent among coaches, the Burke/Wilson marriage is the most understandable (in terms of relationship) yet inexplicable (in terms of results).

Wilson loves the up-tempo, high pressure fore-check system, one that values solid speedy skaters and an endless motor.  Burke also values the pressure style, but with a difference, he wants his skaters to be able to paste the defensemen into the end boards.  Wilson wants three lines of skill, speed and scoring ability, I am sure he would love to have more size than the Leafs current roster provides and that is how the Leafs finally started to play better hockey, rolling three lines and basically letting the "sandpaper" out of the cage when needed.

Burke's altered that philosophy a bit in the last year, de-emphasizing size in favor of physical rink rats. It's the type of player that better fits Wilson's gameplan, which might be a reason why the Leafs are 10 points better in the standings than they were through 35 games last season.

Whether you think Burke's decision reeks of a) swagger; b) arrogance; c) confidence; or, d) all of the above, the choice to ink the coach at this time puts the accountability directly on him.
Keep in mind that Wilson's contract does not count against the salary cap. If management and/or the board decides it is time to pull the plug, the deep pockets at Bell and Rogers easily have the financial resources to eat whatever monetary commitments remain on Wilson's deal.

? That Burke opted to lock up Wilson long term should come as no surprise. He's hinted at it for months but was believed to be stifled in his efforts over the summer because of the Leafs' uncertain ownership at the time, a situation that has since been rectified. It's the logic and the timing that doesn't make sense.

....some accountability has to be taken for the inability of an Original Six franchise to qualify for the postseason on an annual basis.

Burke's move here signals he believes this is a team that will qualify for the playoffs and void any calls for Wilson's noggin.

 

[Hockey_gal]

If we look at the players that were on the team when Wilson started as coach, to the players he currently has, there is a marked improvement in player talent, skill and ability.  Could any team win when the starting goalies were Raycrap or Toskala, and with forwards such as Blake and Mitchell?  I do not fault RW for his record up to the end of last season, but rather the players that RW was handed.

What I would like to see now is for the players to play better knowing their coach has an extra season.  The onus to make the playoffs will rest on the players.  However, if the team plays crappy the rest of the way, I could see RW being gassed by the end of the season.  With a decent talented team, the expectation should be to make the playoffs and win at least one round, and not to be golfing in May.

My thoughts as well.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Burke's take...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=AoBqZGkNNrN2HdhCC78kpQF7vLYF?slug=capress-hkn_leafs_wilson-16048487

"This coach has earned this extension," Burke said. "It's not charity, it's not a gift.

On the Leafs being sixth in the East and Wilson guiding them to a 32-22-10 record since the All-Star break...

"It's pretty impressive, it's certainly a healthy clip," Burke said.

On why he gave Wilson the extension...

"When the coach goes into the cage, he needs the chair and the whip ? not just one," Burke said. "It's not enough to just be the coach for the rest of the season in my opinion.

"So I think it's an important statement. I think think it was the right thing to do."

"He hasn't been out of work very long," Burke said. "There's a reason for that. The hockey community believes in this guy."

"Ron Wilson is in the top 10 in every category in the history of the league in terms of coaching," Burke said

Burke said there are usually clear signs when it's time to make a coaching change and he hasn't seen them.

"You have agents calling you and complaining that the players don't like the coach and aren't going to play for him," Burke said. "You have what we call snipers ? unnamed players taking shots ? and there has been none of that since I've been here.

"In fact, I had players come to me last year telling me, 'Don't change the coach.' So it hasn't been nearly as big an issue or a debate as it's been outside the room or outside of our organization."