Time for All Leafs Fans to Cheer for the Team NOT the Tank

[louisstamos]

I've got to side with Nik here - I think the word "cheer" here might be what's throwing people off.  I don't think anyone here would be upset if the Leafs were to defy expectations and make the playoffs this year, and would cheer for the team if they were to do so.

But when the team does lose, even if in spectacular fashion like they did last night, nobody is getting upset at that either.  Like Highlander said - this team still needs to learn how to win, keep and opponent down, etc.  Remember how angry everyone here got during the whole "18-wheeler" incident?  That's because those teams were expected to make the playoffs and failing (in even greater spectacular fashion!).  Now, the expectations are lower - it's a young team learning how to play at the NHL, so nobody is getting angry if they lose.

Sure, I *want* them to win every game, and want them to go to the playoffs this season, beat Ottawa, Philadelphia, and Vancouver onward to the first of 15 straight Stanley Cups, and then at the Stanley Cup parade meet Lindsey Stirling, fall in love and make super-attractive music virtuoso babies - but it's very lofty expectations not granted in reality.  That said, if any of those things were to happen (especially that last one!), I wouldn't be upset at all!

And like Nik and busta said, losing doesn't hurt as bad when it does happen because the reward for that *could* be another high end player.  How much better will this team be if we add a Matthews/Marner/Nylander equivalent on D?

 

[Kin]

Not when the whole statement is on the same page and can be easily read.  So then how does tanking speak to developmental success to speak to the entire post?

The reason it's misleading is because you're doing the same thing you're doing here which is mashing up two separate statements into one. There's the issue of what I'm cheering for(individual development) and what I think is ultimately best for the team(high draft pick).

So ultimately your question here is a bit of a straw man. I don't think the team having a lousy year helps individual development, I don't think it affects it at all. Or, to look at it another way, I'd argue there are just as many developmental positives through failure(trial and error being a major part of any process) as there is in immediate competitiveness.

And I think that if you look around the league, that generally holds true. Crosby, Ovechkin, Doughty, Stamkos, Kopitar, McDavid, Tavares...all of them had developmental years where the team around them was just flat-out bad. Individually, guys like Marner, Nylander and Matthews are going to be faced with so many new challenges that where the team ends up finishing in the standings will be immaterial to their development as pros.

Which takes us back to the same basic equation. If where a team finishes is ultimately immaterial to how good young players develop(at least in the short term) then is it better to draft #2 or #12? Again, that's a pretty easy call in my book.

 

[louisstamos]

It might be worth asking - in the cap era, has it ever happened where a team has finished last one year, and then made the playoffs the next year?

The only one I can think of is Philadelphia - and they didn't even have the first overall pick (#2 - JvR).

 

[TBLeafer]

I've got to side with Nik here - I think the word "cheer" here might be what's throwing people off.  I don't think anyone here would be upset if the Leafs were to defy expectations and make the playoffs this year, and would cheer for the team if they were to do so.

But when the team does lose, even if in spectacular fashion like they did last night, nobody is getting upset at that either.  Like Highlander said - this team still needs to learn how to win, keep and opponent down, etc.  Remember how angry everyone here got during the whole "18-wheeler" incident?  That's because those teams were expected to make the playoffs and failing (in even greater spectacular fashion!).  Now, the expectations are lower - it's a young team learning how to play at the NHL, so nobody is getting angry if they lose.

Sure, I *want* them to win every game, and want them to go to the playoffs this season, beat Ottawa, Philadelphia, and Vancouver onward to the first of 15 straight Stanley Cups, and then at the Stanley Cup parade meet Lindsey Stirling, fall in love and make super-attractive music virtuoso babies - but it's very lofty expectations not granted in reality.  That said, if any of those things were to happen (especially that last one!), I wouldn't be upset at all!

And like Nik and busta said, losing doesn't hurt as bad when it does happen because the reward for that *could* be another high end player.  How much better will this team be if we add a Matthews/Marner/Nylander equivalent on D?

How many Leaf seasons have you been through?  When its this early, the stakes are incredibly low and nobody gets all that upset with a loss at this time of year, even when Sundin was in his prime and Gilmour played his first season as a Leaf.

See Rielly.

 

[louisstamos]

How many Leaf seasons have you been through?  When its this early, the stakes are incredibly low and nobody gets all that upset with a loss at this time of year, even when Sundin was in his prime and Gilmour played his first season as a Leaf.

Answers: since I was about 6 or 7, so circa 88-89?

If that's the case, and the stakes are so incredibly low, why are you calling for people to stop cheering for a tank that's nobody is actually doing?

And yes - I can recall a few years were the team was competitive and legitimately getting upset at them losing games early in the season.  I remember them getting drubbed 6-0 by...I want to say the Penguins, when they didn't have a great team.

See Rielly.

Oh, good.  I didn't know we could play Rielly the entire game.  I retract my point, then.

 

[TBLeafer]

It might be worth asking - in the cap era, has it ever happened where a team has finished last one year, and then made the playoffs the next year?

The only one I can think of is Philadelphia - and they didn't even have the first overall pick (#2 - JvR).

The main point determining when a high first rounder is no longer a necessary outcome, nor is playoffs.  The point is that getting yet another high pick doesn't work any more in your favour toward the eventual end goal of being a contender, than improving over last season and ending up in the middle of the pack.

Sadly that potential result isn't as rewarding for some, because they satisfied enough with what we already have for a developing core and just enjoy the existing getting better and improving.  Like Chicago did in Toews and Kane's rookie season.

Like Buffalo did with Eichel last season.

Like the Leafs will hopefully do this season. 

If being good enough to be a middling team is our fate this season, it will still work toward the greater good of becoming a contender.  It won't hinder the process in the slightest.

GO LEAFS GO!!!

 

[TBLeafer]

How many Leaf seasons have you been through?  When its this early, the stakes are incredibly low and nobody gets all that upset with a loss at this time of year, even when Sundin was in his prime and Gilmour played his first season as a Leaf.

Answers: since I was about 6 or 7, so circa 88-89?

If that's the case, and the stakes are so incredibly low, why are you calling for people to stop cheering for a tank that's nobody is actually doing?

And yes - I can recall a few years were the team was competitive and legitimately getting upset at them losing games early in the season.  I remember them getting drubbed 6-0 by...I want to say the Penguins, when they didn't have a great team.

See Rielly.

Oh, good.  I didn't know we could play Rielly the entire game.  I retract my point, then.

So we're close in age.  I'm up on you by just a few years going back to the '83-84 Leafs when I was 5-6.

Nobody likes a blowout.  We all get upset by that, tanking team or not.  Last night was hardly that.

See Zaitsev.

 

[Kin]

It might be worth asking - in the cap era, has it ever happened where a team has finished last one year, and then made the playoffs the next year?

The only one I can think of is Philadelphia - and they didn't even have the first overall pick (#2 - JvR).

Maybe more to the point the year Philadelphia had where they finished last was a year where their young core was up on the team and having their rookie seasons. Their growth the next year didn't come from new players on the team, it was guys like Richards and Carter having really good second seasons(and a massive shift in goaltending).

 

[louisstamos]

The point is that getting yet another high pick doesn't work any more in your favour toward the eventual end goal of being a contender

Having good young players to the team's control doesn't help the team become (and possibly more importantly, stay) a contender?

I agree with you that I think the Leafs at this point who their core going forward is - Matthews, Marner, possibly Nylander, Rielly, etc.  But you can always improve on that, especially on D.  Yes, Rielly, Gardiner and Zaitsev are all good players - but none of them are on that elite level like guys like Doughty, Karlsson, Keith, Letang, etc.  I mean, Rielly *could* still develop into one, but all signs point to him being a very good 1st pairing guy (like a Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk, etc)

The good news is, and I recall discussing this in the Stamkos thread in the spring (may it's soul rest forever ) is that d-men is a little bit more of a crapshoot.  Of those 4 guys listed above, only 1 of them is a top 5 pick  (Karlsson is mid 1st, Keith 2nd, Letang 3rd).  On top of which, because the way the draft lottery is structured, you could end up with a middling team that misses the playoffs but still be a lottery winner (although the chances are slim, still possible).  But the higher a pick is, the better likelihood of getting the guy you want, who can help your team in the way you want them to.

Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked.  The point is - nobody is calling for a tank.  Not yet, at least.  But nobody is getting frustrated with the losses either - partly because we understand a) where the team is in terms of it's development, and b) what that potentially means down the road in terms of the draft pick.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I never 'cheer' for them to lose. But with the place this team is, losing doesn't sting as much, and I'm not going to be psyching myself up to make sure those loses sting as much as possible. I'm fine watching these kids play and putting wins and loses lower down my caring list. At this point I've prefer them play well and lose than play poorly and win.

Getting another high pick will most certainly help towards becoming a perennial contender. The more high level players we have the better the team is and the more options they have available to them.

 

[rdowdall]

The main point determining when a high first rounder is no longer a necessary outcome, nor is playoffs.  The point is that getting yet another high pick doesn't work any more in your favour toward the eventual end goal of being a contender, than improving over last season and ending up in the middle of the pack.

So more talent is bad?

 

[Tigger]

The main point determining when a high first rounder is no longer a necessary outcome, nor is playoffs.  The point is that getting yet another high pick doesn't work any more in your favour toward the eventual end goal of being a contender, than improving over last season and ending up in the middle of the pack.

So more talent is bad?

I guess, when you're trying to argue against something that basically doesn't exist here right now, sure, why not.

Maybe Tank Nation just has a Matthews sized hangover and will be in bed for 40 games or so, hard to say, but I don't see one of those threads this year, not yet at least.

Where can I get me one of those random all cap word stencils? I bet the chicks dig it.

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

That's easy; I never cheered for the tank.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, I mean, we've gotten bogged down in the semantics of the word "tank" before but I think there's a difference between thinking the high draft pick is the best outcome and wanting the team to do things to ensure it.

I think the team should be looking to move pieces at the deadline, the guys with one year left like Michalek/Polak/Hunwick and with an open mind on JVR and Komarov, but I feel that way anyway. Outside of that I think the team should generally be trying to put forth their best effort every night, I just think it won't amount to much in the sense of wins.

 

[freer]

Yeah, I mean, we've gotten bogged down in the semantics of the word "tank" before but I think there's a difference between thinking the high draft pick is the best outcome and wanting the team to do things to ensure it.

I think the team should be looking to move pieces at the deadline, the guys with one year left like Michalek/Polak/Hunwick and with an open mind on JVR and Komarov, but I feel that way anyway. Outside of that I think the team should generally be trying to put forth their best effort every night, I just think it won't amount to much in the sense of wins.

Your probably correct, especially if we can't hold a lead in the third period. I just want to see a defensemen knock some one over when they are in front of the net which unfortunately has not happen to date.

 

[rdowdall]

Yeah, I mean, we've gotten bogged down in the semantics of the word "tank" before but I think there's a difference between thinking the high draft pick is the best outcome and wanting the team to do things to ensure it.

I think the team should be looking to move pieces at the deadline, the guys with one year left like Michalek/Polak/Hunwick and with an open mind on JVR and Komarov, but I feel that way anyway. Outside of that I think the team should generally be trying to put forth their best effort every night, I just think it won't amount to much in the sense of wins.

Your probably correct, especially if we can't hold a lead in the third period. I just want to see a defensemen knock some one over when they are in front of the net which unfortunately has not happen to date.

I think the Leafs need that D-man that can dictate the pace of play.  So if the Leafs are behind they start the offense by getting it out of their zone quickly and starting the transition to offence quickly.  If they are up, they slow the play down, making the calm, safe play that stifles the oppositions attack. 

If it gets to the point where someone has to knock someone over in front of the net, they are already in to the danger zone.  The great defencemen in the game right now stop it more often than not from getting to that point.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Sorry to burst the optimism bubble but yeah, it still exists.

while still recognizing that another low finish is ultimately in the team's best interest.

Thank you for airing my thoughts so eloquently, but next time get your own!

These are not exactly the words of fans that want us to be gunning for the playoffs.

No, those are fans that are being pretty honest about where the team's at. I hope they win every game this year, but the reality is they're not a playoff team, and they're going to lose more games than they win.

We all get that you want to eat your goose, but will you really be that upset if it lays a few more golden eggs first?

 

[bustaheims]

No, those are fans that are being pretty honest about where the team's at. I hope they win every game this year, but the reality is they're not a playoff team, and they're going to lose more games than they win.

I think the last couple games serve as pretty good evidence for this, too. There's clearly talent on this team, but, they're young and inexperienced, and that leads to a lot of mistakes - especially in the defensive zone. And, as young and inexperienced teams do, they'll probably over compensate for a while, then over adjust, and so on. It'll take time for them to find the right balance.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd like to see improvement overall from last year simply because I don't want them to get stuck in an Oilers-like cycle of years and years with no discernible improvement, wasting some of the most productive years of their young players.  Oilers lucked out with McDavid, if they hadn't who knows what their future would look like right now.

 

[bustaheims]

I'd like to see improvement overall from last year simply because I don't want them to get stuck in an Oilers-like cycle of years and years with no discernible improvement, wasting some of the most productive years of their young players.  Oilers lucked out with McDavid, if they hadn't who knows what their future would look like right now.

I get that, but, at the same time, this is very much Year 1 for this group (only 10 players who were regularly in the lineup from day 1 last season remain on the roster, meanwhile, 7 players are in their first full NHL season), so, not seeing improvement in terms of wins and losses this season doesn't seems like an indication they'll be entering an Oilers-like stagnation. It's next year where I think that starts to become something to look out for.