Western Conference final: (3) Phoenix Coyotes vs. (8) Los Angeles Kings

[Bates]

Yeah after reading my post I am finding it hard to get accross what I think on hitting from behind.  I remember being in minor hockey in the 80's when the checking from behind rule was introduced.  People were turning their backs on every play to draw a penalty.  I think we now need to teach kids that this is wrong and instead turn our attention to teaching more about protecting yourself and how to safely take a hit. 

 

[cw]

Maybe I need to look at the video again but Doan's hit didn't strike me as a definite suspension. The player turned towards the boards after Doan lined up the hit. Doan was pretty close when he did so and therefore, may not have had much of a chance to let up.

As I said, maybe I need to review it again. But it wasn't a hit where I thought "he's gone for a few games for sure!" The announcers were debating whether it would be a five minute penalty.

I'd agree to the extent that a lack of suspension wouldn't stun me. Like you said it didn't strike me as particularly malicious.

That said, I think it was an example of a hit that the NHL wants to and probably will phase out. I think the next generation of players are going to have to realize that they may not be able to charge full speed into the boards at someone if they can't stop themselves in time not to hit them from behind. Accidental or not, Doan had his elbow pretty squarely on his back numbers.

Thinking back five years or maybe more, including this season, I would never describe Phoenix as a dirty team. I checked my feelings on that and they've ranged from middle of the pack to 2nd least in times short handed over that time - probably in the top quarter of least penalized over that time.

That's interesting. Obviously the idea of a "dirty" team isn't exact but I'm not sure number of penalties would necessarily be indicative of a team's reputation for clean play. I have to imagine that a pretty substantial number of penalties that get called are of the inadvertent variety or are things like fighting or roughing that don't fit most definitions of dirty play.

I mean, this year the top five teams in terms of times shorthanded were Philadelphia, Montreal, Dallas, Ottawa and Edmonton. Last year it was Montreal, Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Columbus and Colorado.

I mean, call me crazy, but I'd be more inclined to say that the common thread there is a lousy defense which makes a certain degree of sense. I'm not sure how you'd really get a handle on a team's dirtiness without a breakdown of the types of penalties.

I didn't feel like writing a book on it but I did look here:
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/NHL/T-FMAJ/regularseason?&_1:col_1=10
I find it pretty tough looking at those stats (and others on that site) that go beyond showing just fighting majors (on that particular linked inquiry you see misconducts, boarding, charging, etc) making the case that Phoenix is a dirty team because the refs certainly didn't penalize them much for it.

Having watched them a reasonable amount over the last five years, those numbers roughly jive with what I've seen. And teams like Philly for example, who have a lot more of these types of infractions, they roughly jive with what I've seen from them.

It's not a perfect indicator but close enough in my opinion to roughly substantiate one's observations.

 

[Tigger]

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that there will be a suspension as Lewis and Brown both played the rest of the game ( no significant injuries, so far as I know at least ) but it's enough for the league to have a look.

Lewis did turn ( my guess is because of the broken stick by the dasher boards interfering with the puck ) but Doan threw his elbow/shoulder into the numbers and was lucky Lewis didn't end up with anything worse than a bloodied nose.

 

[bustaheims]

Hanzal has a disciplinary hearing scheduled for today for his hit on Brown, so, a suspension there is probably likely. Doan doesn't, so, the in game punishment was deemed to have been enough.

 

[Deebo]

No suspension on the Morris hit either.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Hanzal has a disciplinary hearing scheduled for today for his hit on Brown, so, a suspension there is probably likely. Doan doesn't, so, the in game punishment was deemed to have been enough.

I thought the Doan hit wasn't really his fault either, I mean sure, you have to be responsible, but that guy turned right at the last millisecond from what I saw.

On the other note; That official should get a suspension for that diving call..... brutal!

 

[Kin]

I didn't feel like writing a book on it but I did look here:
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/NHL/T-FMAJ/regularseason?&_1:col_1=10
I find it pretty tough looking at those stats (and others on that site) that go beyond showing just fighting majors (on that particular linked inquiry you see misconducts, boarding, charging, etc) making the case that Phoenix is a dirty team because the refs certainly didn't penalize them much for it.

I'm not even sure what to make of those numbers. For the most part teams seem kind of bunched up in those categories with a couple of exceptions like Dallas or Philadelphia leading the charge.

I don't know, like I said, I'm not sure there's going to be statistical evidence of a loose concept like dirtiness.

 

[bustaheims]

DarrenDreger: 1 game for Hanzal as per NHL release.

 

[Kin]

It might be too late to change an NHL player from turning away from hit but we definately need to start teaching this at the minor level.  There is a reward for getting hit from behind as there should be.  But I think we need to take away the reward if you put yourself in the position to take that hit.

I think the problem with what you're saying is that you're assuming a level of intent on the part of the guy getting hit. I don't think, especially in this situation but in most others as well, that the guy turning is doing so to draw a penalty. I think, rightly so, his focus is on the puck and he's turning to play the puck.

The league isn't going to regulate how quickly players are allowed to turn in the corners and they're really better off not trying to guess a player's intent when he does quickly turn around. Really the only thing they can do is penalize the hits and put the responsibility on the guys flying into the boards too quickly to react if a player does change direction.

 

[Bates]

That's kinda what I am trying to say although I am doing poorly!!  By the time a guy gets to NHL it is almost a reflex to turn away from a hit and that's how we end up with so many hits from behind.  I think it starts at a young age when they are taught this "skill".  I would suggest that we start right back at the beginning and penalize youth who turn away from hit thus weeding this play out of the game.  At the same time we should be hammering anyone who hits from behind on someone who does not turn into that position.  We need to start attacking this issue on both fronts at the youth level and hopefully the turning and the hitting from behind can be removed from the game.  They should also be teaching young players how to take a hit as well as how to avoid one.

 

[Tigger]

I'm not sure I see the argument 'turning away is contributing to hitting from behind' in the sense that penalizing a player for playing the puck like that seems wrong headed to me in every way. 

 

[Kin]

That's kinda what I am trying to say although I am doing poorly!!  By the time a guy gets to NHL it is almost a reflex to turn away from a hit and that's how we end up with so many hits from behind.  I think it starts at a young age when they are taught this "skill".  I would suggest that we start right back at the beginning and penalize youth who turn away from hit thus weeding this play out of the game.  At the same time we should be hammering anyone who hits from behind on someone who does not turn into that position.  We need to start attacking this issue on both fronts at the youth level and hopefully the turning and the hitting from behind can be removed from the game.  They should also be teaching young players how to take a hit as well as how to avoid one.

I agree that kids shouldn't be taught to turn away from hits to draw penalties but I don't know how much that's actually done, if at all, and I definitely don't think that happened here. Guys are going to make quick cuts and turns in the offensive zone because their primary focus will and should be be playing the puck.

Doan is the guy who ultimately has to be responsible here and I think the five minute major and a game was the right call for a hit that was reckless but not malicious.

 

[cw]

I didn't feel like writing a book on it but I did look here:
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/NHL/T-FMAJ/regularseason?&_1:col_1=10
I find it pretty tough looking at those stats (and others on that site) that go beyond showing just fighting majors (on that particular linked inquiry you see misconducts, boarding, charging, etc) making the case that Phoenix is a dirty team because the refs certainly didn't penalize them much for it.

I'm not even sure what to make of those numbers. For the most part teams seem kind of bunched up in those categories with a couple of exceptions like Dallas or Philadelphia leading the charge.

I don't know, like I said, I'm not sure there's going to be statistical evidence of a loose concept like dirtiness.

As I said above, I look at it a few ways to get a feel.

If a team doesn't get many penalties over the coarse of an 82 games schedule, it's pretty darn unlikely they're a 'dirty' team. Ditto for times short handed because there's less of an effort made by refs to even up calls for dirty play. Phoenix has averaged roughly the bottom quarter of the league over the last few years.

Then I look at non fighting majors because usually, to get a nonfighting major, the player has committed a pretty significant and probably dirty foul. All of Phoenix's majors were for fighting.

Dirty teams tend to draw more fights due to opponents trying to settle the score for a dirty play against a teammate. Phoenix is 25th in fighting majors.

The breakdown of penalty stats used to be better. But even those today give some insight with respect to providing some reason to suspect a tendency towards dirtier play. Tripping, hooking, holding, interference,  delay of game, etc - those types of penalties are not indicators of a dirty style of play. Charging, boarding, slashing, misconducts, game misconducts, etc - those types of penalties tend to be indicators of a dirtier style of play.

These stats are a little like the +/- stat - they're not that precise. But when you see a team that
- is 28th in penalty minutes
- is 24th in times shorthanded
- is 25th in fighting majors
- has no non fighting majors
- has no game misconducts
- is tied for 22nd in misconducts (with 4)
- is 20th in boarding
- is 30th in unsportmanslike (with 0)
- is 27th in roughing
- is 26th in slashing
- is 24th in cross checking
- is tied with many at 14th for charging (with 2)

To me, there's ample statistical indication in those numbers gathered over 82 games and similar in pattern in those numbers to prior recent seasons that that profile of penalties is not one of a dirty team. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Kin]

To me, there's ample statistical indication in those numbers gathered over 82 games and similar in pattern in those numbers to prior recent seasons that that profile of penalties is not one of a dirty team. Maybe that's just me.

To be clear, I'm not taking the opposite position. I don't know if I have an opinion on  Glendale's relative clean play. I'm just not sure, in general, that concept can be quantified. Doan's hit is a perfect example. A boarding major and a misconduct but not, I think we agree, a "dirty" play.

So I'm not convinced one could say without watching a team regularly but that may just be me.

 

[cw]

To me, there's ample statistical indication in those numbers gathered over 82 games and similar in pattern in those numbers to prior recent seasons that that profile of penalties is not one of a dirty team. Maybe that's just me.

To be clear, I'm not taking the opposite position. I don't know if I have an opinion on  Glendale's relative clean play. I'm just not sure, in general, that concept can be quantified. Doan's hit is a perfect example. A boarding major and a misconduct but not, I think we agree, a "dirty" play.

So I'm not convinced one could say without watching a team regularly but that may just be me.

I haven't seen them nearly as "regularly" as the Leafs but I've watched a lot of their games over the last number of years increasing when Tellqvist was traded there in '06-07 and I posted about some of those games. I'm also familiar with a number of their players from watching them play in the NHL before they played in Phoenix. My original post on this reflected on my impressions of watching them over the last number of recent years and then checking the penalty stats to see if they aligned with my observations - to help cover off games I'd missed. They did handily as they have with a few other teams I've watched more than very occasionally over the last number of recent years.

All teams commit infractions that include the 'dirty' types. To me, a 'dirty' club implies a behavior of several players as opposed to one or two and several 'dirty' type infractions beyond an average team. One or two bad incidents over many games or a few in recent seasons is not what I would describe as an exclusive characteristic of a 'dirty' club because the lack of frequency eliminates it from being a characteristic pattern.

With the rules changes from the lockout, the two refs, the league video review of incidents that has increased scrutiny during the game and the league crackdown on some types of dirty play, it's hard for me to fathom, even if I'd never seen a team play, how a 'dirty' club could wind up near the bottom of penalty stats that could be related to 'dirty' play, recent year after recent year like Phoenix has. It defies the reality of how the rules are administrated and pretty basic reasoning. The odds of it being terribly wrong or off over that length of time strikes me as extremely low and something I've never seen. I've been looking at those stats since before the lockout.

 

[Kin]

With the rules changes from the lockout, the two refs, the league video review of incidents that has increased scrutiny during the game and the league crackdown on some types of dirty play, it's hard for me to fathom, even if I'd never seen a team play, how a 'dirty' club could wind up near the bottom of penalty stats that could be related to 'dirty' play, recent year after recent year like Phoenix has. It defies the reality of how the rules are administrated and pretty basic reasoning. The odds of it being terribly wrong or off over that length of time strikes me as extremely low and something I've never seen. I've been looking at those stats since before the lockout.

So, I'm wrong to be repeatedly stating that Phoenix is the dirtiest team in the league by far in response to your assertion otherwise? Ah well, can't win 'em all.

 

[ZBBM]

I have to admit, I had never really heard of Dwight King until these playoffs, but he's scoring some big goals for LA.

 

[Deebo]

The kings are unstoppable.

 

[hockeyfan1]

2-1 L.A.  Absolutely nothing Phoenix does will be enough. 

Next game Sunday in L.A.  One more win away from the Stanley Cup final!

 

[cw]

Phoenix was somewhat competitive in the first period but LA only allowed 4 shots in the second and 4 shots in the third. Phoenix barely got a sniff of a scoring chance in those last two periods. Even when they were trying to pull their goalie or taking chances to tie it up near the end, they couldn't get out of their own zone. LA was all over them winning the battles and controlling the play. It seems silly to say and probably an overstatement but "the most dominating 2-1 victory I've ever seen" was bouncing around in my head. The score flatters Phoenix and distorts how the game played out.

LA is playing on a different level than anyone else in these playoffs. Every one of their players and each line seems on top of their game. This series seems handily over. I don't think I've ever seen Phoenix this frustrated.

Maybe it's premature to say and the magic can disappear as quickly as it came, but I'm not sure it matters who wins the East. This club looks like it will clobber them. We've all seen 8th place teams make the final but I can't recall one doing it this way. Usually, it's a hot goalie stealing a couple of 7 game series or something like that - some crazy luck or string of good bounces/bad calls going their way. But the scores in these LA games often don't reflect their play. This team is simply dominating and bulldozing some darn good hockey clubs.