2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Kin]

I'm not suggesting the chef isn't a draw to help sell the hockey.

No, much like the chef is responsible for the quality of the food, the players are responsible for the quality of the hockey and that, as we've established, is the thing that separates the NHL from the AHL.

Crosby needs an arena, a league of teams to play against, teammates, and a management team to take care of everything else in order to produce great hockey.

Well, that's not fundamentally true. Just like a great chef would be making great dishes on his home stove, Sidney Crosby would be a great hockey player without the NHL. The NHL would not be a great hockey league with second tier players. I don't care how fancy the decor is, you don't go to an expensive restaurant if the food stinks.

 

[Kin]

Doesn't change that fact that he's an employee (though, in the case of restaurants, things get a little muddled and he's likely an owner as well)

Do you see how great this analogy is? The reason chefs become owners is because of their value to the business. Because their talent is what draws the crowds.

Anyways, again, rather than quibbling over "is the product" vs. "responsible for the product" the point is still that this is not summed up best in a traditional labour vs. management context.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't care how fancy the decor is, you don't go to an expensive restaurant if the food stinks.

Sure, because you're paying for the quality of the product (the food/the calibre of hockey), and you only get that by going to places that have their product prepared by the highest quality, most skilled employees (the chefs/the players).

 

[bustaheims]

Anyways, again, rather than quibbling over "is the product" vs. "responsible for the product" the point is still that this is not summed up best in a traditional labour vs. management context.

That probably the most even-handed thing you've said in a long time.

 

[Kin]

Sure, because you're paying for the quality of the product (the food/the calibre of hockey), and you only get that by going to places that have their product prepared by the highest quality, most skilled employees (the chefs/the players).

Yes. This is my point. Players have a disproportionately large impact on the success of the league compared to, say, guys on an assembly line and so their disputes cannot be seen as directly comparable.

 

[hap_leaf]

As well, this is a team activity.  A fine chef can prepare a great meal alone in his own kitchen.  He can also enjoy it all for himself.  But Crosby needs players to pass with, goalies (great and mediocre ones) to beat, etc.  Only in comparison to others can you see what a skilled NHL player can do.  Crosby cannot do much to empower himself during this time without the infrastructure around him.  Not to mention today's news of his insurance being too much to play anywhere else at all.  He might as well take up cooking.

 

[louisstamos]

Why am I hungry all of a sudden?...

 

[Kin]

But Crosby needs players to pass with, goalies (great and mediocre ones) to beat, etc.

Absolutely. Crosby needs other players. But if I heard that Crosby, Malkin and Weber were playing Stamkos, Datsyuk and Chara in a game of three on three shinny at my local rink, I'm going.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

But Crosby needs players to pass with, goalies (great and mediocre ones) to beat, etc.

Absolutely. Crosby needs other players. But if I heard that Crosby, Malkin and Weber were playing Stamkos, Datsyuk and Chara in a game of three on three shinny at my local rink, I'm going.

but are you going enough times to pay their million dollar salaries?  I agree that the players are not akin to regular workers however I do think that there is a symbiosis here.  The NHL like any league is also a brand.  a brand backed by those players for sure but it also assures the viewer that every new guy that comes in to the league carries with him a certain cache.  Guys like Crosby might be bigger than the game, that's a different debate.  But the league isn't made up of 700 crosbys.  for the ones that aren't him they immediately get a certain bump to their earning potential and their status as a hockey player by being in the league.  I'm sure there are some guys in the nhl that could either exist in the nhl or ahl, do these players not benefit from the nhl?  or in other words who's showing up consistently enough to pay for the three on three game with mike brown, colby armstrong and i don't know let's say colton orr.  (just a random example..i think you get the point though.)

 

[Kin]

but are you going enough times to pay their million dollar salaries?

Well, not me by myself but me as in the fans? Yes. Remember, the league evolved to where it was out of a genuine interest in the sport. The sport existed pre-NHL and crowds came out to see them play. If the NHL folded tomorrow, would your interest in the sport vanish?

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

but are you going enough times to pay their million dollar salaries?

Well, not me by myself but me as in the fans? Yes. Remember, the league evolved to where it was out of a genuine interest in the sport. The sport existed pre-NHL and crowds came out to see them play. If the NHL folded tomorrow, would your interest in the sport vanish?

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that yes most people would continue to watch hockey no matter what.  I however am probably not in that group.  This seems like heresy but for me part of my interest in the sport has always been not only the players but the history.  Sadly I like the leafs, I really do.  it's a somewhat abusive relationship especially lately but the game doesn't mean quite the same to me when it's not the leafs.  Of course I get excited to see the olympic matchups but it doesn't mean as much..the only reason i've ever taken in any ahl games is due to the fact that they were the marlies and the hope is one day they'd be leafs. 

That being said if a new league came into existence and starting putting together a history and survived for a decade or so, then i'd probably get into it.  until then though it wouldn't mean anything to me.

I guess i count on the leafs and the nhl to be a standard barer to say that this is not only hockey but an achievement of some kind.  Winning the cup is hard...the proof of that is in every year that goes by without the leafs winning a cup (or a lot of other teams for that matter)..if i'm not assured of that ..then my interest wanes.

Anyway so i wouldn't go out and speak for anyone else but for me as much as i hate them at the moment...the nhl is an important part of my interest in the game.  Perhaps had the WHL succeeded i would be watching that now.  but I doubt i would have been one of the ones switching over to it when it started (can't say for sure as I wasn't really alive.)

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

I'm a world class chef, and a restaurant owner comes to me and says, "I'll give you 50% of the house take, and I'll take care of ALL the expenses to open and operate the restaurant." 

You would have to be a complete IDIOT to not take that offer.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I'm a world class chef, and a restaurant owner comes to me and says, "I'll give you 50% of the house take, and I'll take care of ALL the expenses to open and operate the restaurant." 

You would have to be a complete IDIOT to not take that offer.

unless your previous offer was i'll give you 56% of take ...

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm a world class chef, and a restaurant owner comes to me and says, "I'll give you 50% of the house take, and I'll take care of ALL the expenses to open and operate the restaurant." 

You would have to be a complete IDIOT to not take that offer.

For your comparison to be relevant, the NHL owners would have had to have offered Sidney Crosby 50% of revenues personally.

 

[BrownRolo]

I'm a world class chef, and a restaurant owner comes to me and says, "I'll give you 50% of the house take, and I'll take care of ALL the expenses to open and operate the restaurant." 

You would have to be a complete IDIOT to not take that offer.

unless your previous offer was i'll give you 56% of take ...

Oh yeah, and sometimes the guests can get a little unruly. So watch out for flying pieces of hard rubber. Oh, and they like to smash the chef into the wall, so here, we recommend you wear this helmet.

One more thing, we have 30 restaurants all across North America so we are going to need you to travel to these cities at different points each year. Say goodbye to your family and hello to airplanes and hotels, because for 50% of the time you will be away from home.

And no you can't see our accounting books. That is private. You just have to trust us. Come on, would we lie to you?

 

[bustaheims]

And no you can't see our accounting books. That is private. You just have to trust us. Come on, would we lie to you?

Well, this part is a lie. The PA has access to the various teams' books if they feel they're being cheated. If you've noticed, they haven't disputed the revenue figures like they did last time. This time, they know they're accurate.

 

[rdowdall]

Does anyone else get the feeling that this lockout is happening because there is a general feeling that they know they can do it, and not miss a beat when they settle the dispute?  I'm not one for petitions, as they accomplish nothing except waste time and ink, but would this lockout be happening if they knew that when they came back half of the fans they used to have would be gone?  I think they are comfortable with the current situation because they know that the Canadian teams will have the full fan base back when they choose to end this foolishness, and the big market teams like the Rangers and Flyers won't lose fans, because they are pretty rabid about supporting their teams as well.

I realize that there is a tonne of incentive for both sides to get a deal done, but if that is case, then why are there no meetings scheduled?  Why does it appear as though nothing is really happening?  What does this say about the league if they miss another full season?

 

[BrownRolo]

And no you can't see our accounting books. That is private. You just have to trust us. Come on, would we lie to you?

Well, this part is a lie. The PA has access to the various teams' books if they feel they're being cheated. If you've noticed, they haven't disputed the revenue figures like they did last time. This time, they know they're accurate.

Meh, I still hate the owners.

And I think I read that the revenue the owners state is a little murky and they leave out certain income like concessions or parking when it is convenient for them.

 

[bustaheims]

And I think I read that the revenue the owners state is a little murky and they leave out certain income like concessions or parking when it is convenient for them.

The CBA is pretty specific about what is HRR and what is not, how it's calculated, etc. That section of the CBA is very detailed. They're not allowed to just leave it out. If they're caught doing so, they put themselves at risk for major lawsuits and other legal issues - not to mention issues that would arise from within the league and their constitution and by-laws. One owner doing so could conceivably put all of them at risk. It just doesn't happen in any meaningful way. HRR is calculated by an independent accounting firm, and if either sides question the numbers, they have the right to call for a full audit. If you read that, it was either a conspiracy theory or an out-and-out lie.

 

[Corn Flake]

And no you can't see our accounting books. That is private. You just have to trust us. Come on, would we lie to you?

Well, this part is a lie. The PA has access to the various teams' books if they feel they're being cheated. If you've noticed, they haven't disputed the revenue figures like they did last time. This time, they know they're accurate.

Everyone remember the giant stack of file boxes the league dropped off at the PA offices in August or September? Yeah those were the books.  There hasn't been any discussion about transparency from the league since then.