2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Newbury]

Don't mind the Thames deal but definitely not a fan of the Snider deal.

 

[dappleganger]

Yeah, an OF with monster upside for a reliever?

Shi Davidi ‏@ShiDavidi
Farrell says Lincoln will pitch out of bullpen.
Retweeted by Ken Rosenthal

I'm not liking this already... Somebody please say something nice about Lincoln.  :-\

He has a 1.10 WHIP this year which is good and won't reach free agency until 2018.

He was also the 4th pick in the '06 draft which is intriguing.

At first glance I'm thinking this deal could blow up in our face but I'll have to defer to AA on this one.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Don't know anything about Lincoln.  Sad to see Snider go, and hope it's not as soon as he's realizing his potential.  Assume AA must see something in Lincoln.  His draft position is intriguing, but only to a degree.

Lincoln, 27, is likely to see immediate action in a key set-up role, having gone 2-0 with a 0.50 earned-run average in 23 relief appearances of the Pirates after posting a 2-2 mark with a 6.08 ERA in five starts. He struck out 40 in 35.2 innings out of the bullpen, allowing just 22 hits and eight walks.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/07/31/blue_jays_travis_snider_traded_brad_lincoln/

 

[Kin]

Well, you had to figure a move was in the cards after the terrible things Snider must have done to Anthopolous' family.

 

[L K]

27 year old reliever for a guy who to me still has that potential to be a big middle of the order bat.  I don't see that as a good trade for the AL East.

He is having a very good year as a reliever though.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will say that I think our offence is good enough without Snider going forward (think we were leading the league in runs a couple games ago), and so I can see trying to stockpile pitching, especially the way it has gone.  Perhaps they don't believe Snider will ever get over the K's/issues with his swing.

Still not sure though.

 

[Peter D.]

Know very little about Lincoln to say I really like or dislike this trade as an immediate reaction, but I did think that Snider would have brought back a more recognizable name or been packaged up in a bigger deal.  I've never been a big fan of Snider's so I won't say I'm overly disappointed as some people are; while he was never given a lot of rope as others have been, I also don't think he took advantage of his opportunities and he was always underwhelming in my eyes.

Snider and Thames gone in the same night.  This likely means that Davis will be the full-time LF for the rest of the year ( :-X), Gose will shift to LF once Bautista is back (he looks like he needs more time in the minors) or this is a precursor to a bigger trade (Upton?).

 

[L K]

And Gose gets more time in the majors with a 472 OPS.  If Snider put that up in his rookie year he would have been sent down ages ago.

I like Gose's potential, but I'm just not seeing MLB calibre out of him right now.  Down the road, yes, but right now he's in over his head.  He's hitting .179.

 

[Kin]

I mean it's funny to say but because I actually like Snider I'm almost happy about this because at the very least it means he'll get away from a team that seemed to want to ruin his career.

It'd make sense from the Jays perspective if there was someone else in the system who figures to be a middle of the lineup corner outfield type in the next few years but who in the system fits that bill? Why in the world wouldn't you give Snider the rest of the season as opposed to wasting more at-bats on Davis?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

EDIT: Pretty much already posted this exact same thing.  No sleep make me something-something.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't love the Snider deal, but, Lincoln is a good arm, and, while he's been used mainly out of the bullpen so far in the big, he put up pretty good numbers in the minors as a starter. It wouldn't surprise me if that's what AA was going for here.

 

[Corn Flake]

AA must have gotten tired of reenacting the movie Trading Places with Snider, AKA Winthorpe. 

I wonder whose dreams he will intentionally crush now?  He is too evil to not pick someone.

 

[Kin]

The one thing I'll say is that we've already scored the most runs in the league (or had as of a game or two ago), so it's not like offensive production is a pressing need, and I don't see that significantly changing in the next little while without Snider.

That depends on whether you're talking about the long term or the short term. In the short term the offense going forward is one with Gose in place of Bautista and Mathis in place of Arencibia. The offense of late has been feast or famine. In the 16 games post All-Star break they've been held to 2 or fewer runs 7 times, 1 or less 6 times. They've scored 4 and a half runs per game over that stretch because they've had some big games but that's not a stellar offensive output, especially not if you're trying to contend with teams like the Angels, Sox and Rangers.

Long term, their OPS ranks 8th in the league and their OBP is 14th. They've hit a ton of homeruns this year but other than that I'm not sure they're a very good offensive team. Definitely not to the extent that they can start giving it away in the division they're in.

  Perhaps the recent rash of pitching injuries has AA concerned about the pitching depth of the team and wants more birds in the hand, so to speak, in terms of pitching.

But that expression is about the sure thing vs. the potential greater reward, right? So, I'd buy it if they were trading for a pitcher that was a sure thing but we're talking about a 27 year old having his first decent season(and that's after outright failing as a starter) in the NL central. Pitching against the American League this year Lincoln has an era of 5.28 and a WHIP of 1.565

 

[Andy007]

I don't love the Snider deal, but, Lincoln is a good arm, and, while he's been used mainly out of the bullpen so far in the big, he put up pretty good numbers in the minors as a starter. It wouldn't surprise me if that's what AA was going for here.

According to what I read up on Lincoln, he has two really good pitches and that's about it. His minor league era is also over 4 as a starter. I think the thinking with him orginally what that he would incorporate a 3rd pitch and that, combined with his fastball and cutter, would propel him into an effective starter in the majors. It looks like he will (or should) be only a reliever.

 

[Kin]

While I'm at it, in PNC park which rates as one of the best pitcher's parks by a wide margin Lincoln has a 0.42 ERA, 0.516 WHIP and K/BB ratio of 12.00. Away from PNC he's got an ERA of 4.03, a WHIP of 1.421 and a K/BB of 3.

 

[Kin]

According to what I read up on Lincoln, he has two really good pitches and that's about it. His minor league era is also over 4 as a starter. I think the thinking with him orginally what that he would incorporate a 3rd pitch and that, combined with his fastball and cutter, would propel him into an effective starter in the majors. It looks like he will (or should) be only a reliever.

The numbers seem to back that up. It looks like he's flirted with a curve and a slider in the last couple of years but this year he's throwing either the fastball or the cutter about 91% of the time, mixing in a two-seamer and a change-up probably in his couple of starts.

His average fastball velocity is at 93 for the year which, out of the pen, is probably 94-95 so...there's that.

 

[bustaheims]

According to what I read up on Lincoln, he has two really good pitches and that's about it. His minor league era is also over 4 as a starter. I think the thinking with him orginally what that he would incorporate a 3rd pitch and that, combined with his fastball and cutter, would propel him into an effective starter in the majors. It looks like he will (or should) be only a reliever.

Morrow was in a pretty similar situation when he got here, and he's now a very effective starter. So, who knows?

 

[Kin]

Morrow was in a pretty similar situation when he got here, and he's now a very effective starter. So, who knows?

Morrow always had world-beating stuff though and his issue was always harnessing it(and 13 good starts notwithstanding that still may be his issue). Lincoln's issues seem to be whether or not he can get crafty enough to be effective.

 

[Andy007]

According to what I read up on Lincoln, he has two really good pitches and that's about it. His minor league era is also over 4 as a starter. I think the thinking with him orginally what that he would incorporate a 3rd pitch and that, combined with his fastball and cutter, would propel him into an effective starter in the majors. It looks like he will (or should) be only a reliever.

Morrow was in a pretty similar situation when he got here, and he's now a very effective starter. So, who knows?

I think Morrow was more comparable to Burnett in that he lacked control and was mentally fragile. He was also continually bounced back and forth from being a closer to a starter whereas Lincoln was torched as a starter and now just inserted as a reliever. Furthermore, Morrow was 1-2 yrs younger at the time of his acquisition.

But besides that, Lincoln lacks the devistating slider/curveball out pitch that Morrow has and I think without that 3rd pitch Lincoln is going to never really excel as a starter.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

According to what I read up on Lincoln, he has two really good pitches and that's about it. His minor league era is also over 4 as a starter. I think the thinking with him orginally what that he would incorporate a 3rd pitch and that, combined with his fastball and cutter, would propel him into an effective starter in the majors. It looks like he will (or should) be only a reliever.

The numbers seem to back that up. It looks like he's flirted with a curve and a slider in the last couple of years but this year he's throwing either the fastball or the cutter about 91% of the time, mixing in a two-seamer and a change-up probably in his couple of starts.

His average fastball velocity is at 93 for the year which, out of the pen, is probably 94-95 so...there's that.

The site I saw said he was throwing his curve 32% of the time? I think I read on twitter that his curve was pretty good too.

I like this site so here's a recap of the trade with the pros/cons of both players: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/did-alex-anthopolous-just-make-a-bad-trade/