2015 NHL Entry Draft

[Tigger]

Many have lamented the Kessel trade because TO lost the opportunity to draft Seguin, I think the lost opportunity to nab Hamilton is/was what slowed TO's opportunity to succeed. Seguin on Dallas and the resulting awesome offense they have hasn't resulted in success, same for Colorado with all their great offensive weapons, they like Edmonton haven't created the proper environment that allows their offense to push them into the upper echelon of the NHL, TO can be like these losers and continuously draft high scoring forwards with the vague hope that some how the result is success but we all should know we need a #1 d-man as a foundation for the future, we don't have that now and if Hanifin is passed TO needs to grab him now.

Just so I have you clear, you would have drafted Gudbranson over Seguin?

 

[hobarth]

Great teams can be built without big or flashy centers so long as the defense is superior like NJ in the past, even great teams now have strong defenses with excellent forwards but no team without a superior defense can ever expect to be dominant.

But there are exceptions to everything. I agree a good defense is pretty key but Pittsburgh won their cup coming at 17th in the league in GAA. Carolina won theirs with a pretty mediocre collection of defensemen and were 20th in GAA. Overwhelmingly having excellent centers is as strong a commonality among cup winners as any you'll find.

Many seem to think score and yee shall win but we all know that's not true, it's time someone who manages the Leafs finally realizes that defense is the bedrock of success, if Hanifin is available then TO has to take him, all other choices are simply window dressing. 

Ok. But what if he's not available? What if Arizona takes him? Talking about Marner and Strome is predicated on the very real possibility that those will be the two players that the Leafs will choose from.

Regardless though. You don't draft for positional need when you're starting a rebuild. The Leafs are in it for the long haul. They shouldn't neglect the defense but taking a defenseman with the #4 pick isn't a necessity at all. There will be good defensive prospects available at #24 too.

I'm talking Hanifin, it's different if he's not available, Hanifin has basically been considered the 3rd best player available in the upcoming draft, a superior draft, in my eyes that makes him franchise cornerstone quality, not sexy, because he may not score 60 points but someone all teams want on the ice in every and any situation. If this type of d-man is available rebuilding franchises, especially, need to take advantage, actually all teams should pounce.

I keep hearing that that Arizona is going to take Strome, I say great because TO needs Hanifin more than Strome or Marner, Hanifin if he is as good as most think is going to make TO's defensive core credible, make his playing partner better, enable TO to actually have the puck for awhile. I know Arizona has OEL but I think that they should take the BPA, Hanifin, because having the BPA is never a bad player to have on any roster.

How much better would Tampa be with Jones but somehow they thought the high scoring, more sexy, choice(Drouin) was a better option, why?

I know that many of you Ontarioites have seen Marner and Strome play so you feel that you have an insider knowledge of how valuable they will be but how many of you have seen Hanifin? I see the media has started to reconfigure the draftee rating and I wonder why, I think they are trying to include their idea of team's needs in their assessments and are no longer sticking to the BPA model that they should be.

 

[Kin]

How much better would Tampa be with Jones but somehow they thought the high scoring, more sexy, choice(Drouin) was a better option, why?

I don't know. How good was Nashville with Jones(and Weber and Josi and etc.)? They got bounced in 6 games and had the second worst GAA in the playoffs.

 

[Lynx]

Or maybe they are reconfiguring then because Hanifin is no longer considered the third best player available? Rankings change, just because he was rated third before doesn't mean he still should be. And not everybody had him third to begin with. Consensus didn't mean anything when it's people like Craig Button are included in that consensus.

 

[hobarth]

Many have lamented the Kessel trade because TO lost the opportunity to draft Seguin, I think the lost opportunity to nab Hamilton is/was what slowed TO's opportunity to succeed.

Seems to me that a reasonable view might be that both hurt.

Seguin on Dallas and the resulting awesome offense they have hasn't resulted in success, same for Colorado with all their great offensive weapons, they like Edmonton haven't created the proper environment that allows their offense to push them into the upper echelon of the NHL,

Leaving aside that you're misrepresenting Edmonton a little there(they finished 26th and 25th in the league the last two years in goals per game) I could just as easily point to Nashville as being a team who's built a really great defense around top defensive stars but who've been unable to compete with the teams that are deeper down the middle than they are.

I don't know why you're pushing this dichotomy where you either have to believe either offense or defense is important. They both are.

Nashville is an excellent example of a team built on defense without the supposed essential #1 center that can win convincingly with Riberio as their #1 center, the meagre offense that Riberio provides is all that's needed to push them into a potential Stanley cup contention position much like NJ who's #1 center was Gomez, both teams defenses enabled even slightly better than average players appear to be greater than they were and put them in contention, TO's often better than average offense never put it in a position to be a credible contender.

Of course both are important but quality offense comes from possession and that is what quality d-men give you, quality support.

TO should it really decide to rebuild needs to do it right by drafting the BPA, the BPA people, and that's Hanifin, if Strome was the BPA then it's Strome that should be drafted.

I refuse to believe that a pokey player or a shrimp with a history of concussion issues can be the 3rd best players available in what is acknowledged as one of the best drafts in years.

 

[sneakyray]

Didn't Marc bergevin, who's team already has a Norris quality dman and a vezina quality goaltender just say that a big, #1 Centre is the hardest player to acquire? And this from the guy who drafted galchenyuk #3 overall a few years ago.

 

[Kin]

Nashville is an excellent example of a team built on defense without the supposed essential #1 center that can win convincingly with Riberio as their #1 center, the meagre offense that Riberio provides is all that's needed to push them into a potential Stanley cup contention position

Dude, they got knocked out in the first round this year. All of that defense and they got lit up by the Blackhawks.

much like NJ who's #1 center was Gomez, both teams defenses enabled even slightly better than average players appear to be greater than they were and put them in contention

Or like Tampa who won a cup with Pavel Kubina as their #1 defenseman? Or Carolina who did it with Glen Wesley, Bret Hedican and Tomas Kaberle's less talented brother?

Of course both are important but quality offense comes from possession and that is what quality d-men give you, quality support.

Good forwards contribute to possession too.

TO should it really decide to rebuild needs to do it right by drafting the BPA, the BPA people, and that's Hanifin, if Strome was the BPA then it's Strome that should be drafted.

Sure, and like it or not there is that debate right now. It's not the consensus you're making it out to be.

I refuse to believe that a pokey player or a shrimp with a history of concussion issues can be the 3rd best players available in what is acknowledged as one of the best drafts in years.

Yes, well, I guess not watching them is why you'd describe them as such.

 

[Tigger]

TO should it really decide to rebuild needs to do it right by drafting the BPA, the BPA people, and that's Hanifin, if Strome was the BPA then it's Strome that should be drafted.

I refuse to believe that a pokey player or a shrimp with a history of concussion issues can be the 3rd best players available in what is acknowledged as one of the best drafts in years.

But you believe that a player you've basically never seen is?

 

[hobarth]

How much better would Tampa be with Jones but somehow they thought the high scoring, more sexy, choice(Drouin) was a better option, why?

I don't know. How good was Nashville with Jones(and Weber and Josi and etc.)? They got bounced in 6 games and had the second worst GAA in the playoffs.

Did/do you not watch the playoffs, where you not aware that Weber was injured, I think Tampa, a healthy Tampa, might not win the Cup because of injuries, does that mean that when healthy they are not worthy of winning the cup. I think the playoffs are a bit of a sham, the best teams are the best teams for 82 games but an inopportune injury over a short period of time whips out all the good of their season.

I wonder how well Chicago would do without Kane or Toews or Keith, I personally feel that Tampa is the better team and they would have been more prepared to win with Jones than Drouin.

 

[hobarth]

Didn't Marc bergevin, who's team already has a Norris quality dman and a vezina quality goaltender just say that a big, #1 Centre is the hardest player to acquire? And this from the guy who drafted galchenyuk #3 overall a few years ago.

I think he's referring to actual #1 centers not any old player that have both Marner's and Strome's limitations.

 

[Kin]

Did/do you not watch the playoffs, where you not aware that Weber was injured, I think Tampa, a healthy Tampa, might not win the Cup because of injuries, does that mean that when healthy they are not worthy of winning the cup. I think the playoffs are a bit of a sham, the best teams are the best teams for 82 games but an inopportune injury over a short period of time whips out all the good of their season.

Yes, well, unfortunately winning in the playoffs is still what it's all about. And Weber, and let's be real just about everyone is "injured" in the playoffs, has only ever gotten into the second round twice in his career. Just about every time that Nashville's gone up against a team with good centers, they've gotten shown the door.

It's a pretty uninspiring playoff record for a team that's been pretty stacked on the blueline. You may think that the Playoffs are a sham but most people here are concentrated on building a team to win the Stanley Cup and not the Presidents Trophy.

 

[sneakyray]

Didn't Marc bergevin, who's team already has a Norris quality dman and a vezina quality goaltender just say that a big, #1 Centre is the hardest player to acquire? And this from the guy who drafted galchenyuk #3 overall a few years ago.

I think he's referring to actual #1 centers not any old player that have both Marner's and Strome's limitations.

Except that that is exactly what Strome is supposed to become.

 

[L K]

So you totally attribute TO's inability to successfully finish a season on it's inability to continue to score.

Exactly.  I live in a world of absolutes and binary decision making.....No.  You stated that Toronto has maintained a top 10 offense.  I clearly showed that they haven't.  Next point.

I haven't watched many of Strome's, Marner's or Hanifin's games but I have watched just about every Leaf game for the last 20 years. TO's better teams had better defenses, it is a team's ability to intelligently defend that enables the Gilmores, the Sundins, etc. to provide enough offense to make TO a winning team, without the defense the offense is wasted like Kessel's ability to reach the top 10 in scoring while TO continues to flounder.

So was it the ever maligned Tomas Kaberle or the booed out of Toronto Bryan McCabe that thrilled you about the Leafs defense?  Perhaps it was Andy Wozniewski and Jyrki Lumme.  What made Sundin as effective as he was was his ability to dominate the game and play a decent two-way game.

You seem to think that if Strome or Marner becomes Leafs their offense will ensure TO's future because of their junior success and that might be true in the right circumstances but it is only possible if TO has laid the right foundation for them and the team to thrive, that's the defense.

You seem to imply that my defense of two players who I have watched extensively over the course of the year implies that I think they are valuable picks based on their offensive production.  What gives Marner high praise isn't his offense, it's that while he plays that kind of offensive game that he is a guy who backchecks and has a good two-way game.  You would know that if you watched him play.

Many have lamented the Kessel trade because TO lost the opportunity to draft Seguin

The lament of the Kessel trade was that Burke threw away two high value unknown assets on a player who wasn't well equipped to carry a team.  I could easily point out that Boston has had multiple decisions debating on whether they should sign Hamilton to a long-term contract or consider trading him. 

Goals and assists are sexy but defense is the foundation of a winner.

Exactly.  Defense.  Not defensemen.

 

[AvroArrow]

Guys, I'm pretty sure hobarth is just trolling.  His posts are loaded with contradictions and bias.

 

[L K]

Nashville is an excellent example of a team built on defense without the supposed essential #1 center that can win convincingly with Riberio as their #1 center, the meagre offense that Riberio provides is all that's needed to push them into a potential Stanley cup contention position

Dude, they got knocked out in the first round this year. All of that defense and they got lit up by the Blackhawks.

I'm going to take this a step further.  Nashville has won two playoff series in their team history.  They have a lifetime playoff record of 14-28.  What exactly has Nashville's "build from the blueline" approach produced. 

You need balance.  Hanifin is a fine prospect.  He's a tier below Aaron Ekblad but a very good defense prospect.  But he's not a saviour that singlehandedly turns a team around.  Trying to make him out to be one is silly.  He's more likely to become a Jay Boumeester than Duncan Keith.  As Nik pointed out earlier, teams can do very well with a very good top defenseman but it's because the rest of the team is really strong. 

 

[Kin]

I'm going to take this a step further.  Nashville has won two playoff series in their team history.  They have a lifetime playoff record of 14-28.  What exactly has Nashville's "build from the blueline" approach produced. 

In a fun coincidence the two coaches whose teams they've beaten in the playoffs? Randy Carlyle and Mike Babcock.

 

[hobarth]

Guys, I'm pretty sure hobarth is just trolling.  His posts are loaded with contradictions and bias.

Is expressing your opinion, trolling?

Please show us the contradictions you allude to, I've simply maintain that I want TO to take the BPA not the sexiest. How many teams are kicking themselves in the butt for passing on Forsberg when his Euro stats were not equal to the sexier more inflated NA skaters that were picked before him.

I'm finding the Nashville argument getting a little childish, we all know they don't have/ won't spend the money to become a contender meanwhile TO spends enough to buy many championships yet Nashville in a much tougher division can and does actually make the playoffs, what would they have accomplished with Suter on their team, the tragedy is that TO doesn't draft Suters and certainly never attract Suters to play for the Leafs.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-defencemen-a-hot-commodity-at-draft/

"Elliotte Friedman: 30 Thoughts ? NHL Draft trade chatter building (Sportsnet)
Three separated themselves from the rest: Hanifin, Brandon?s Ivan Provorov and Michigan?s Zach Werenski. Damien has Provorov going fourth to Toronto, and that didn?t come as a shock to a few execs and scouts I asked. Hanifin is fifth to Carolina, Werenski eighth to Columbus."

I will reiterate, I don't care who TO drafts but it needs to be the BPA.

 

[Kin]

Please show us the contradictions you allude to, I've simply maintain that I want TO to take the BPA not the sexiest.

Sure, but you've also entirely ignored every single mention I've made of teams who won the cup with only good or mediocre defenses in pursuit of that point.

Truth is, like I said, you're not being consistent. Sometimes you're arguing BPA, sometimes you're arguing for the relative importance of defense. That's a contradiction. Drafting the best player available isn't controversial. I want them to do that too. What's controversial is that you don't seem to know a lot about the options the Leafs will have but you're willing to misrepresent the scouting opinions like Marner and Strome are nobodies and Hanifin is universally acclaimed as the second coming of Bobby Orr. Truth is there is debate about who the best player will be after Eichel and McDavid and it's worth having.

I'm finding the Nashville argument getting a little childish, we all know they don't have/ won't spend the money to become a contender meanwhile TO spends enough to buy many championships yet Nashville in a much tougher division can and does actually make the playoffs, what would they have accomplished with Suter on their team, the tragedy is that TO doesn't draft Suters and certainly never attract Suters to play for the Leafs.

But nobody wants the Leafs to be Nashville. We want the Leafs to be Chicago. A team that, when they had high picks, tended to favour going after forwards(including shrimpy wingers like Patrick Kane) and who built their defense in large part elsewhere in the draft.

Simple fact is, teams with really good forwards have eaten Nashville's lunch in the playoffs. You can make a big deal about Nashville making the playoffs like being better than the Leafs is some great accomplishment but truth is A) they don't all the time and B) when they're there they don't do anything because they can't match the real contenders for forward strength.

 

[AvroArrow]

Please show us the contradictions you allude to

One moment you spout BPA, the next you say we need to draft defencemen because defense wins championships.

As for the trolling part, you admit to not having seen any of these guys play, then say Hanifin is amazing but Strome and Marner suck as a key point to your "leafs must draft Hanifin" point.  If that's not trolling, then that's just sad.

 

[hobarth]

Please show us the contradictions you allude to, I've simply maintain that I want TO to take the BPA not the sexiest.

Sure, but you've also entirely ignored every single mention I've made of teams who won the cup with only good or mediocre defenses in pursuit of that point.

Truth is, like I said, you're not being consistent. Sometimes you're arguing BPA, sometimes you're arguing for the relative importance of defense. That's a contradiction. Drafting the best player available isn't controversial. I want them to do that too. What's controversial is that you don't seem to know a lot about the options the Leafs will have but you're willing to misrepresent the scouting opinions like Marner and Strome are nobodies and Hanifin is universally acclaimed as the second coming of Bobby Orr. Truth is there is debate about who the best player will be after Eichel and McDavid and it's worth having.

I'm finding the Nashville argument getting a little childish, we all know they don't have/ won't spend the money to become a contender meanwhile TO spends enough to buy many championships yet Nashville in a much tougher division can and does actually make the playoffs, what would they have accomplished with Suter on their team, the tragedy is that TO doesn't draft Suters and certainly never attract Suters to play for the Leafs.

But nobody wants the Leafs to be Nashville. We want the Leafs to be Chicago. A team that, when they had high picks, tended to favour going after forwards(including shrimpy wingers like Patrick Kane) and who built their defense in large part elsewhere in the draft.

Simple fact is, teams with really good forwards have eaten Nashville's lunch in the playoffs. You can make a big deal about Nashville making the playoffs like being better than the Leafs is some great accomplishment but truth is A) they don't all the time and B) when they're there they don't do anything because they can't match the real contenders for forward strength.

I think that Tampa and Carolina were flash in the pan Stanley Cup Winners, something that can be explained by injuries or even a brief inexplicable hot goalie or hot team at the right time, your logic suggests that winning during a brief time means that was a deserving Cup winner but I think that the quality of the entire season plus playoffs speaks far more of the quality of the teams than somehow fluking a 20 game season. TO lately starts every season on a 20 game hot streak yet fails to make the playoffs, TO hasn't been a playoff team no matter what the first 20 games tells us. If TO happened to squeak into the playoffs  and then had the same brief hot streak to win the Cup but failed to make the playoffs the following season, I would question the credibility of their accomplishment.

Kuba in his prime was a darn good d-man, Kuba on TO was well past his prime, TB also had Dan Boyle so they had a reasonable defense and they also had Khabibulin in goal so the bedrock was there to support the brilliant forwards. At this point TO is nearly totally without any quality d-men, much of that has to do with RC's coaching, so we need to lay the foundation for success which shouldn't be grasping at the most attractive straw, it should be drafting the BPA.

I always want TO to take the BPA but since d-men spend more time on the ice than anyone but the goalie and a potential franchise d-man is available but his stats don't hold up to the sexier Junior players in part because he plays against men, give us the BPA which isn't always the guy with the best stats, I haven't ever read anything that suggests Hanifin isn't a slam dunk draft choice but many fans seem seduced by the inflated stats of Strome with McDavid or the stats of the small damaged goods Marner who's linemates are Domi and Dvorak.

The difference between a strong defense and a more questionable one can be seen in the differences in LA and Chic, LA barely squeaks into the playoffs yet wins Cups, Chic cruises into the playoffs and wins cups, Chic can cruise because of their defense but LA outside of Doughty has a far more challenged defensive unit, enduring success is enhanced by a great  balance of offense and defense, yes there are always exceptions as you have so eloquently pointed out but those are simply exceptions. I would say that LA's forwards are superior to Chic but the balance on LA is not as genuinely supportable as Chic.

I see Hanifin as a cornerstone franchise d-man and as such is someone that TO has needed since Salming, even franchise d-men need time to acclimate to the NHL so having the opportunity to acquire one at the beginning of a rebuild is ideal, next year's draft has a whole whack of impressive looking forwards who don't generally need as much seed time, jumping on Strome or Marner is not my first choice if Hanifin is available.